CDIH

HedCold Wrote:why? if you can sign up to marry people why shouldn't a priest be allowed to?

he can if he does it without religious influence

The Sleeper Wrote:

HedCold Wrote:if the church recieves money from the gov't, or gets extra tax benefits because they perform weddings, then there's a govt involvement there and they could threated to take those away if they don't allow gay weddings.
now i don't believe there is, but if there is then the gov't would have a right to say something. but since they don't, they have no right to tell the church who to marry

Ok, so a store that doesn't get benefits from the government can refuse service to black people because since they are privately owned, they can do whatever they want?

They could they had to pass laws to prevent that.

The Sleeper Wrote:MY POINT IS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO MARRY PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE! JESUS!

The government is who issues the marriage license.

There is a ceremony which occurs during a wedding.

That ceremony cannot take place in a Catholic Church if the two people are gay.

What if the two people want to have their ceremony in the church, because it is important to them for their wedding to occurs under the eyes of God, and as a part of the holy sacrament of marriage, which they believe in?

The government cannot tell the Catholic religion that the ceremony must occur in the church, because that would be infringing on the beliefs of the Catholic faith.

PlasticMan Wrote:Of course a church wouldn't be forced to marry a gay couple. Just the fact that you're not Roman Catholic will keep you from getting married in a Roman Catholic church. Church's are private institutions that have the right to exclude any people they don't want.

I don't think that is true. The only thing is that the person who is not Catholic cannot receive Holy Communion during the ceremony.

The Jays Wrote:

The Sleeper Wrote:MY POINT IS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO MARRY PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE! JESUS!

The government is who issues the marriage license.

There is a ceremony which occurs during a wedding.

That ceremony cannot take place in a Catholic Church if the two people are gay.

What if the two people want to have their ceremony in the church, because it is important to them for their wedding to occurs under the eyes of God, and as a part of the holy sacrament of marriage, which they believe in?

The government cannot tell the Catholic religion that the ceremony must occur in the church, because that would be infringing on the beliefs of the Catholic faith.

1) Either disassocate all governmental benefits from getting married, then they can do whatever the fuck they want wherever they want

or

2) Don't let marriage be a holy sacrament blah blah blah and keep it strictly govenmental

you can't have it both ways, or it is in violation of separation of church and state. you can loophole all you want, but it's still a violation

usually a church will only marry you if you are part of the parish, or if you set up something with them for special reasons. but i think you have to prove at least one of is a practicing catholic (this is judgemental based on the feelings of the priest at the church agreeing to it), and say that the family is going to be raised that way

HedCold Wrote:usually a church will only marry you if you are part of the parish, or if you set up something with them for special reasons. but i think you have to prove at least one of is a practicing catholic (this is judgemental based on the feelings of the priest at the church agreeing to it), and say that the family is going to be raised that way

then they should get no governmental benefits because they are discriminating who they can marry (which is recognized by the government) based on religion. Can't you see that this is a clear violation of separation of church and state?

Quote:

Quote:(PlasticMan @ Feb. 20 2004,7:14 pm)
Of course a church wouldn't be forced to marry a gay couple. Just the fact that you're not Roman Catholic will keep you from getting married in a Roman Catholic church. Church's are private institutions that have the right to exclude any people they don't want.

I don't think that is true. The only thing is that the person who is not Catholic cannot receive Holy Communion during the ceremony.

It's absolutely true. I'm getting married in about five months, and because my fiance and I are both going to hell, none of the Catholic churches would let us use their facilities for the ceremony.

The Sleeper Wrote:

The Jays Wrote:

The Sleeper Wrote:MY POINT IS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO MARRY PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE! JESUS!

The government is who issues the marriage license.

There is a ceremony which occurs during a wedding.

That ceremony cannot take place in a Catholic Church if the two people are gay.

What if the two people want to have their ceremony in the church, because it is important to them for their wedding to occurs under the eyes of God, and as a part of the holy sacrament of marriage, which they believe in?

The government cannot tell the Catholic religion that the ceremony must occur in the church, because that would be infringing on the beliefs of the Catholic faith.

1) Either disassocate all governmental benefits from getting married, then they can do whatever the fuck they want wherever they want

or

2) Don't let marriage be a holy sacrament blah blah blah and keep it strictly govenmental

you can't have it both ways, or it is in violation of separation of church and state. you can loophole all you want, but it's still a violation

You're not understanding something here.

The Catholic gay couple can have their wedding ceremony done anywhere they want except in a Catholic Church.

They have the marriage license. If they want, they can just go to the JP and have the ceremony performed. They can get married.

The holy sacrament of marriage is a tenet of the Catholic religion. There are seven of them; baptism, confession, communion, confirmation, marriage, holy rites, last rights.

A Catholic marriage occurs when a man and a woman are married under the eyes of God, represented by an ordained priest, in a Catholic Church

That sacrament can't happen if the two people are gay, because the Catholic Church does not approve of homosexuality, and believes that marriage only occurs between a man and a woman.

The government cannot force the Catholic Church to change its beliefs so that a gay couple can have their ceremony done in a church.

PlasticMan Wrote:

Quote:

Quote:(PlasticMan @ Feb. 20 2004,7:14 pm)
Of course a church wouldn't be forced to marry a gay couple. Just the fact that you're not Roman Catholic will keep you from getting married in a Roman Catholic church. Church's are private institutions that have the right to exclude any people they don't want.

I don't think that is true. The only thing is that the person who is not Catholic cannot receive Holy Communion during the ceremony.

It's absolutely true. I'm getting married in about five months, and because my fiance and I are both going to hell, none of the Catholic churches would let us use their facilities for the ceremony.

Both of you are not Catholic?

Quote:then they should get no governmental benefits because they are discriminating who they can marry (which is recognized by the government) based on religion. Can't you see that this is a clear violation of separation of church and state?

can't you see i agreed with you? i said if they DID recieve benefits, which i honestly have no idea if they do, then the gov't can have some sort of say. but since i believe they don't, they shouldn't

is this really that confusing?

I never mentioned the chruch or place of worship deal in any form of govermental issue. The only reason I mentioned it was cause jays kept on saying there is basically no biased against gays and that they are not viewed as inferior based on the rights available to them.

That was my point.

The Jays Wrote:

The Sleeper Wrote:

The Jays Wrote:

The Sleeper Wrote:MY POINT IS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO MARRY PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE! JESUS!

The government is who issues the marriage license.

There is a ceremony which occurs during a wedding.

That ceremony cannot take place in a Catholic Church if the two people are gay.

What if the two people want to have their ceremony in the church, because it is important to them for their wedding to occurs under the eyes of God, and as a part of the holy sacrament of marriage, which they believe in?

The government cannot tell the Catholic religion that the ceremony must occur in the church, because that would be infringing on the beliefs of the Catholic faith.

1) Either disassocate all governmental benefits from getting married, then they can do whatever the fuck they want wherever they want

or

2) Don't let marriage be a holy sacrament blah blah blah and keep it strictly govenmental

you can't have it both ways, or it is in violation of separation of church and state. you can loophole all you want, but it's still a violation

You're not understanding something here.

The Catholic gay couple can have their wedding ceremony done anywhere they want except in a Catholic Church.

They have the marriage license. If they want, they can just go to the JP and have the ceremony performed. They can get married.

The holy sacrament of marriage is a tenet of the Catholic religion. There are seven of them; baptism, confession, communion, confirmation, marriage, holy rites, last rights.

A Catholic marriage occurs when a man and a woman are married under the eyes of God, represented by an ordained priest, in a Catholic Church

That sacrament can't happen if the two people are gay, because the Catholic Church does not approve of homosexuality, and believes that marriage only occurs between a man and a woman.

The government cannot force the Catholic Church to change its beliefs so that a gay couple can have their ceremony done in a church.

The whole system of getting governmental benefits based on marriage needs to be changed, simple as that. Make everyone have a civil union, recognized by the government, ON TOP of whatever religious ceremony they want to have. Then I'm ok with it.

But they still cant be married in a Catholic Church.

I am not getting married, this thread has convinced me its too much of a headache on top of all the other headaches I have heard about marriage.

Just live together and have your own private ceremony like in natural born killers.

HedCold Wrote:

Quote:then they should get no governmental benefits because they are discriminating who they can marry (which is recognized by the government) based on religion. Can't you see that this is a clear violation of separation of church and state?

can't you see i agreed with you? i said if they DID recieve benefits, which i honestly have no idea if they do, then the gov't can have some sort of say. but since i believe they don't, they shouldn't

is this really that confusing?

and my point is that discrimination based on sexual preference is NOT OKAY no matter if something is privately or publicly owned.

GonzoStyle Wrote:I never mentioned the chruch or place of worship deal in any form of govermental issue. The only reason I mentioned it was cause jays kept on saying there is basically no biased against gays and that they are not viewed as inferior based on the rights available to them.

That was my point.

There is bias towards gays. I've always known that.

The government should not show any bias.

The bias comes from society, which gives power to the government. The reason that government is wrong is because society is wrong, regarding gay marriage/civil unions.

Mickey and Mallory Knox had the right idea.

They can't get married in a Catholic Church either.

If it's the CHURCH that says that same sex marriage is wrong/immoral, why should the STATE have anything to do with it? Don't we have a separation of church and state? Or does that just apply in the situations where it's convenient? Same sex couples should be allowed to have a civil ceremony, if not a religious ceremony.