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+--- Thread: Gay Marriage (/showthread.php?tid=8556)
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
The Jays Wrote:for the billionth time, I'd rather all marriages not be recognized by the state, and make the people have seperate ceremonies to gain governmental benefits.The Sleeper Wrote:Alright, let's let bigots perform governmental functions then.So, would you rather that Catholic marriages be not recognized by the State?
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
If marriage isnt going to be recognized at all, then why do they need ceremonies, and why would the receiv any benefits? Basically, everyone, from here on out, would be single individuals, under the eyes of the government.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
how about letting marriage be a religious function based on religious beliefs, and let civil unions be a governmental function based on governmental beliefs. I think that's a good compromise
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
when I say "ceremony", i don't mean a marriage ceremony
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
I have no problem calling everything a civil union. I said earlier that marriage would simply be a type of civil union.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
where we differ is i think marriage should not be a type of civil union, rather it should be a completely religious function for those who want to believe in. They are seperate, NOT inclusive
- Keyser Soze - 02-21-2004
if you really want to seperate church and state, marriage is just the tip of the iceberg. you've got the dollar bill (in god we trust), you've got the pledge of alliegance, and im sure theres plenty of other places where even though the constitution says one thing, the government has gone and co-mingled some sort of religious influence.
we can say, hey lets solve this by making marriage a legal proceeding and whoever is religious can have a ceremony to celebrate it, but you're still going to have bigots and people who people that believe that "God hates fags". You'll still have even moderate people who don't think its wrong but think they shouldnt be able to marry for whatever reason.
society simply is not ready for gay marriage because a majority of this country is based in middle america and has much more conservative values that us on the east and west coast. the best shot gay marriage would have is in the supreme courts that pretty consistantly side with the constitution which pretty clearly protects the civil rights allowed to all people regardless of their sexual orientation.
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
Ok, a marriage and a civil union are two different things.
But, can a priest perform both of them? Save some time and effort for the Catholic couple?
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
Quote:we can say, hey lets solve this by making marriage a legal proceeding and whoever is religious can have a ceremony to celebrate it, but you're still going to have bigots and people who people that believe that "God hates fags". You'll still have even moderate people who don't think its wrong but think they shouldnt be able to marry for whatever reason.
society simply is not ready for gay marriage because a majority of this country is based in middle america and has much more conservative values that us on the east and west coast. the best shot gay marriage would have is in the supreme courts that pretty consistantly side with the constitution which pretty clearly protects the civil rights allowed to all people regardless of their sexual orientation.
This is what I've been trying to say all along. Government's not the source of the problem; society is.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
The Jays Wrote:Ok, a marriage and a civil union are two different things.no, if it means so much to them to get a marriage, let them put in the time to do both
But, can a priest perform both of them? Save some time and effort for the Catholic couple?
- Keyser Soze - 02-21-2004
i think you'll have a pretty hard time finding a catholic priest who will marry a gay couple, even if he does like touching young boys, but then again theres so many weird sects of all types of religions that i bet theres already one that covers catholics who happen to be gay.
what about other religions? i'm sure catholics don't have a monopoly on homosexual bigotry.
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
The Sleeper Wrote:But then, that require a government representative. That person gets paid from taxpayer money.The Jays Wrote:Ok, a marriage and a civil union are two different things.no, if it means so much to them to get a marriage, let them put in the time to do both
But, can a priest perform both of them? Save some time and effort for the Catholic couple?
If you have the priest do it all, and he's registered with the government as being someone who can perform marriages, he receives no money from the government for his services, and you get the same thing in the end.
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
Quote:i think you'll have a pretty hard time finding a catholic priest who will marry a gay couple, even if he does like touching young boys, but then again theres so many weird sects of all types of religions that i bet theres already one that covers catholics who happen to be gay.
what about other religions? i'm sure catholics don't have a monopoly on homosexual bigotry.
We've covered this earlier. I'm only using Catholics as an example because it is the religion that I have the most knowledge about.
There is nothing stopping gay Catholics from starting their own religion. They just won't be recoginzed by the Pope. But, That's their problem.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
Quote:But then, that require a government representative. That person gets paid from taxpayer money.
If you have the priest do it all, and he's registered with the government as being someone who can perform marriages, he receives no money from the government for his services, and you get the same thing in the end.
He's registered by the goverment, yet has the right to discriminate based on sexual preference. it's not okay.
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
But how would he be discriminating? That same priest would have to perform the civil union of two gay people, just not the religious sacrament of marriage, and not in a Catholic Church. They can do it in his office, just like a Justice of the Peace.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
well, you said he was registered to perform marriages, not civil unions, and if he had to also perform civil unions for gay people, you don't think he'd wanna get paid for it?
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
The Sleeper Wrote:well, you said he was registered to perform marriages, not civil unions, and if he had to also perform civil unions for gay people, you don't think he'd wanna get paid for it?No, I said this.
Quote:But, can a priest perform both of them? Save some time and effort for the Catholic couple?
He only needs to be registered with the government to perform civil unions, because that is all the state would recoginze, according to what you said. According to you, marriage has nothing to do with government. So, while being a priest, he's also a registered representative of the government for all civil unions.
And just because he's registered doesn't mean he needs to receive payment for it. For example, A registered architect does not receive money from the state for being licensed to practice architecture.
The license would only state that the priest is also a recognized performer of civil unions.
And a priest cannot receive payment for any service. His faith does not allow it.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
ok, now that brings up the question, do you think a catholic priest would agree to take time out of his day to perform civil unions for non-catholics? what incentive does he have to do this?
- The Jays - 02-21-2004
His love of all people, regardless of anything. That's usually why priests do things.
Why do priests become army chaplains, or prison chaplains? Prison chaplains give guidance to people of other faiths. Why do they do that? They do it because they have a love of all people.
- The Sleeper - 02-21-2004
If you wanna believe that, fine, he can marry the couple, then seperately meet with them in an office to create a civil union.