Home | Search | FAQ
Displaying 1-22 of 22 messages in this thread. |
| Posted By | Discussion Topic: The National Debt: Is there such a thing anymore (my attempt at a serious political discussion) | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The sky is blue | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 5:38 PM |    | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Oct. 00  | Note: This is an open political commentary/analysis First Visit this site Second for liberals: A quote from a 2000 article (visit the website where I found it here. It is not from that website though.): "The Clinton administration and the Republican-controlled Congress have already targeted $2.2 trillion in Social Security surpluses to pay down the national debt." Interesting that when we (democrats) held the top office in the country, we took2.2 trillion dollars from one of our most cherished programs. But logistically, why would democrats want to hack away at a program that they hold dear to them just to fix some problem that no one really pays that much attention to (in the media and likewise)?. Second for conservatives Take a second look at that chart. Under it there is a figure which says "so each citizen's share of this debt is $20,087.55." While the figure will continue to increase, how will a 1.whatever trillion dollar tax cut help this statistic? Obviously Republicans would also want to tuck it aside. This leaves me with the question. In 5, 10, or 15 years, will the media, democrats, and republicans continue to give attention to the national debt which is a very un popular subject Recently the word 'budget surplus' has been thrown around quite frequently. While one may argue that it is the surplus which applies to the budget, our country will continue to not have a surplus as long as there is a national debt. So once again, will this problem be tucked away in a few years? ...And if this does happen, will there even be such a thing as "Government money?"  I'm still saved.... I am starting my very own group to combat the evil of this board. IM me at fezoanda if you are interested. The only requirement is that you be me. This message was edited by Fez on 9-5-01 @ 6:03 PM | ||||
| Sloatsburgh | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 6:01 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | There ain't one damn country that is going to come here and try to collect. Is the debt made up of loans or treasury bills? I am a little uneducated. Oh, and to defile this thread, all I know about the national debt is that some chick in this country owes me a blow job.  42 | ||||
| 2 tired 2 give N F One of the Teen Tomatoe Boys is Retarted... Guess which one I am!!! | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 6:04 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jan. 01 | I see what you're sayin fez...but what I don't get is how we got into a 3 trillion dollar debt...I mean we probably still haven't paid for the Lousiana Purchase if that's the case... And for those of you who can't fathom what a Trillion dollars is...if you had 1 billion dollars and spent 1,000 dollars a day for every day of your life you'd have only spent like half of it when you died...and 1,000 billion = 1 trillion...just to put it into perspective...  This message was edited by 2 tired 2 give N F on 9-5-01 @ 6:08 PM | ||||
| Lord Duvious | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 6:10 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jul. 01 | I'm not sure anyone cares, but I thought I'd throw this out there anyway. I've been reading a book on conspiracy theory and the supposed groups that exert behind-the-scenes control over the world. A major player in this theory is the banking dynasty of the Rothschilds. Supposedly, they managed to take control of countries by means of debt. By loaning massive amounts of money to the U.S., they managed to infiltrate our government. I'm not commenting on the Bush tax-rebate, the condition of the debt or any of that, I just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on this since it does relate. I seriously doubt there will ever be much oppotunity to lower the debt.  Email Me It takes a lot of work to get this cynical. | ||||
| Spork | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 7:11 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | Western governments, and almost all governments from about the mid 20th century onward have been of the Keynesian economic school of thought, the old "priming the pump" metaphor. Deficits and debts aren't bad, it is argued, if they are used to spur the growth of the economy, especially out of recessions and depressions. We have to look at this a couple of ways, but mostly, what impact does that $20,000 per person have on each and every one of us? I think part of the answer is not much. One of the problems with an out of control national debt though is that the servicing of the debt itself (interest payments) can become a very large portion of federal spending. That is obviously not good. However, if you look at things like the Federal Reserve lowering interest rates, well that also lowers the interest rates of the loans the United States itself is floating for its own national debt. When times get a little bit rough, it's not really time to start jacking up taxes and fighting debt. When times get rough you have to encourage people to get out there and work and spend and do all that sort of fun stuff. The larger crisis is more likely the staggering levels of personal debt that INDIVIDUALS are carrying. We're not talking about mortgages here which are scheduled to be paid off, but general consumer debt like car payments and credit card bills. That sort of thing could surprisingly topple us as a nation. One thing that we should really watch for in the upcoming weeks though is the push by Bush to cut CAPITAL GAINS taxes. This is estimated to bring billions of dollars into government coffers because there are people sitting on properties and stocks who would sell instantly because the rate came down. While capital gains tax cuts are seen by many as a haven for the rich, that's not always the case. Often times the elderly who have property to sell (without purchasing a new home) are encouraged to do so when rates drop, but on a more macro level the "investor class" all of a sudden starts salivating when they think that the money they make in the stock market won't be hit as hard when they make gains. So people put money back into the market. With money back in the market, companies start doing more R&D, they hire back all those people they laid off, they start increasing inventories, etc. etc. All things that help the working class AND the investor class (who are sometimes one in the same). Remember that well over 50% of Americans have a presence in the stock market and that capital gains tax reductions are almost always a sure way to increase government revenue and ergo will actually reduce to a small degree the federal debt.  "Look how hot they're getting. And that's an old picture," Anthony says. | ||||
Nay. We are but men. ROCK. The man with the plan. | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 8:13 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | quote: Actually... Let's say you've got 60 years left in ya. That's 21,915 days. Spending 1,000 a day would mean you've spent 21,915,000. 21 million doesn't even make a dent in a billion. Matter of fact, to spend it all in that many days, you'd have to spend 45,630 a day. In other words.... if you want to make full use of your billion.... make the money accessible to your wife.  Me droogies: HydratedPeach is siiiiingin' in the rain. Syndra has graduated and will one day take on droogs of her own. One position available. Come and get one in the yarbles.... if you have any yarbles. | ||||
| Mr. Brownstone | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 8:57 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Dec. 00 |   Two openings available at Mr. Brownstone Academy of Dance . | ||||
| Dawgs47 | posted on 09-05-2001 @ 10:41 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Nov. 00 | When you think of it, the National debt is not really that bad. Most of it is money that we owe to ourselves, from bond sales and interest. Trying to pay back this debt is not really a necessary thing, and that’s why no one is in a rush to do it. There are so many countries that owe us large amounts of money that we have lent out that I am sure we are never going to see. Once off the gold standard, there is really no way to regulate international money trading. Also Fez, good topic. Its Nice to see people on this board discuss some polital/economic issues seriously. Enrolled in the King F-tard school of disobedience | ||||
| 2 tired 2 give N F One of the Teen Tomatoe Boys is Retarted... Guess which one I am!!! | posted on 09-06-2001 @ 1:14 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jan. 01 | quote: LMAO... Also...why haven't we heard from Adolescent Masterbator? Does our resident board socialist have anything he'd like to add??? | ||||
| WookiePoolParty | posted on 09-06-2001 @ 1:47 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Mar. 01 | quote: Believe it or not, I am actually descended from this family. Unfortunately, I exert no control over the American government because my branch of the family tree was "disowned" when they moved to America before WWI. No need to fear us! Help those that need it. Join IBC.  WPP's Swiller Beer Pick of the Week: Sierra Nevada Pale Ale | ||||
| skitchr4u G.O.O.F.B.A.H.G.S. Xtreme Skiing Assualt Force | posted on 09-06-2001 @ 9:44 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Dec. 00 | Lord, I know of the info you are reading. I heard a tape recording recently regarding the forming of the federal reserve system in the early 1900's, and it points to people such as the rothchild's as sort of founding fathers. Its funny that a reserve system (WHICH HAS NOOOO GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY) decides what goes on in our country, especially since it is run by the bank of london. It is humorous that the fed does what it does, and basically gets away with it, and our debt continues to rise, while we sit here and don't care, and the media and government ingore a number that rises by almost $200 mil per day...just my 2cents AIM: SkiT4you First Member of the JWO Kindest regards to Grumpy for the sigpic | ||||
| Snoteater | posted on 09-06-2001 @ 9:49 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | I still on the point of view that the and Debt is bad. That's money your wasting away. It can be better served spending it on the Middle class. | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 09-06-2001 @ 6:05 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | I was away for a few days so I couldn't comment lol. As for the Rothschild's that is what we call a Meritocracy. A system of government that is run primarily by banks heavily influencing politics to the deepest extent. As for the stock market a capital gains tax cut wouldn't help all that much. Sure it would create a spurt but it wouldn't have any real effects. All the corporations have dried up their investment money because they know the market is in terrible shape. If it wasn't for consumer dollars we would be in an even huger recession. And consumer dollars won't be able to hold up the market for that long.  Resident Board Socialist Email me here or IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought no one into the International | ||||
King Shit *board owner* | posted on 09-06-2001 @ 6:21 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Feb. 01 | The debt is the money that the country owes to it's citizens. Every time the government spends more money than it receives in taxes we have a debt that gets added to the total. The sum off all of these debts plus the interest owed is the federal deficit. It's essentially a meaningless number, there are no ways for the citizens to demand their money, it's merely a guidepost to see how much the government profits or loses. Is my train in vain, has my soul gone to waste Am I just a victim of, a victim of my lost faith | ||||
| WookiePoolParty | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 2:13 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Mar. 01 | Froy, that's the deficit you're talking about. It is not added to the national debt. (At least not in such a direct manner.) The debt is the money that the US Government "borrows." Essentially, as someone mentioned, this is done by the floating of US Treasury Bonds and Notes. Thus, these are commonly referred to as debt securities. Granted, the debt created is often used to cover the deficit in a given year, but they are seperate. The debt is cumulative, the deficit is year to year. Help those that need it. Join IBC. WPP's Swiller Beer Pick of the Week: Sierra Nevada Pale Ale | ||||
| Spork | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 8:28 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | AM, once again I'm going to have to say that as a self-proclaimed socialist you really don't quite get how capital markets work. Lowering interest rates and lowering capital gains taxes are things which: Encourage companies to invest in infrastructure Encourage investors to invest in companies A large number of psychological factors also come into play, and companies right now are trying to make sure that costs are contained to a high enough extent as to magnify profits in a rough market. There is an INSANE amount of CASH that is sitting on the sidelines right now. It's all tied up in money markets because it's a "sure thing." It makes its 3-4%. However, and thankfully enough, "greed" starts to break through and investors want to make more than that low return, so they start taking risks. It's a lot easier to take risks when the rewards are bigger (just ask the poor schmucks who insist on playing the lottery on a daily basis). By token of your argument, we could RAISE capital gains taxes without a real effect on the market which is a blatent falsehood. Lowering the capital gains tax, by its very definition, ENCOURAGES investment, it encourages the flow of capital INTO companies which is a GOOD thing. You see, companies when they have money, like to use it to produce products and create things called JOBS. We just need the money that is sitting on the sidelines to come into the market. Lowering the capital gains tax will encourage that, it will encourage people to take capital gains and provide a short-term infusing of capital into the government coffers, and all we need is a spark to light the explosion which will take the economy off in a positive direction. "Look how hot they're getting. And that's an old picture," Anthony says. | ||||
The sky is blue | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 8:33 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Oct. 00 | quote: Um.......duh? I'm still saved.... I am starting my very own group to combat the evil of this board. IM me at fezoanda if you are interested. The only requirement is that you be me. | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 7:12 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Japan has cut interest rates constantly and has done nothing to stimulate the economy. A single capital gains tax cut isn't going to magically make capital appear. Of course there is that a huge amount of money on the sidelines but corporations will be very reluctant because there is simply nothing to drive the market. Investor morale is heavily damgaged. Investors won't go in right after a tax cut because they don't trust the market. Just face it we are in a deep recession. Buckle under and take it. And I don't want to hear bs about it was the dem's fault or the rep's fault. The truth of the matter is that you can't be in heaven forever. Resident Board Socialist Email me here or IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought no one into the International | ||||
The sky is blue | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 7:21 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Oct. 00 | Yes but AM, Japan hasn't been a non technology based export economy since WW2. In fact, that is the main reason they invaded most of south east Asia, they needed the land to harvest and the raw materials. Japan has hardly any room to harvest crops, nor the materials to maintain a solid industrial (in the sense of manufacturing) society. I'm still saved.... I am starting my very own group to combat the evil of this board. IM me at fezoanda if you are interested. The only requirement is that you be me. This message was edited by Fez on 9-7-01 @ 7:34 PM | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 7:41 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | My point is that tax cuts won't stimulate the economy. After yeas of Reagan cutting taxes America went into a recession. And the only that saved us from that was a technology boom(very lucky indeed). Now that the boom has subsided there is nothing you can do. You are forgetting that the basic tenets of Capitalism is that there will always be recession. Resident Board Socialist Email me here or IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought no one into the International | ||||
The sky is blue | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 7:52 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Veteran Registered: Oct. 00 | Its not that tax cuts don't help they economy at ALL, they almost always encourage consumer spending, which from there speeds up other parts of the economy. However, often times (as with this one) the tax cut is not targeted enought at the right people (how many people are going to buy a car with 400 bucks?). I'm still saved.... I am starting my very own group to combat the evil of this board. IM me at fezoanda if you are interested. The only requirement is that you be me. | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 09-07-2001 @ 8:43 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | My view has been to lower taxes for the lower and middle classes(the overhwhelming) and raise them for the rich. Of course this is a progressive tax(or punitive depending which side you are on). What bothers me about opponents of Progressive taxes is that they don't realize that if we didn't have it there would be no such thing as a Middle Class. There would be just rich and poor and no inbetween. This would solve two problems. Burdening of the lower classes and costs of government programs. Resident Board Socialist Email me here or IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought no one into the International | ||||
Displaying 1-22 of 22 messages in this thread. |