Home | Search | FAQ
Page
1
2
3
Displaying 51-65 of 65 messages in this thread. |
| Posted By | Discussion Topic: Gonzo vs. Jesus (please do not read this if you are easily offended or are a devout christian) | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| katya_ann That's Miss Jesus Cooze to you! | posted on 04-15-2001 @ 11:26 PM |    | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01  | The below post is in responce to Gonzo's first post, and all the original quotes are from his post. The below post contains direct quotes from "the new American Bible for Catholics." The commentary is from what I have learned in 12 years of Catholic school, countless homilies, my own interpretations, and the footnotes IN the Bible that I was using. **This post is not meant to offend or otherwise piss anyone off.** A thank you to Gonzo for starting this posting to begin with. Mark 3:5 "Jesus looked at his critics with anger AND GRIEVED." This is taken from a passage wherein Jesus cures the man with the withered hand. His aformentioned critics angered him because they saw it unfit to CURE A MAN on the Sabbath, a day of rest. John 2:15 "He made a whip out of cords and drove them all [the merchants who were cheating the people with unfair prices and the money changers who were unfairly over-charging foreigners] out of the temple area." This passage refers to Jesus chasing out the unclean from the Temple area. Jesus refers to the Temple as "my Father's house." Jesus, as the Son of God, was respecting his Father by driving the unclean from an area of solem worship. Matthew 15:22-28 This passage refers to Jesus mildly testing the mother's faith. He says, after turning her away, "O woman, GREAT IS YOUR FAITH! Let it be done for you as you wish." quote: It is good than the Son of Man, that Jesus, that God, takes from us the things that make us sinners. It is better still that we, human beings, take that step and rid our lives of sin. Mark 9:43 For it is better that you enter the gates of Heaven maimed than to be thrown into the fires of Gehenna with two working hands. This isn't about cutting your hands and feet off; it's about riding your life of the vices that hold us back from God. Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32) This refers to God's plan of having one man and one woman joined in marriage to become one. RE: Adam and Eve, who were to be the inherritors of Paradise, but who were banished because of their sins. So, too, are we called to be faithful. This "piece of advice" is supposed to make us think long and hard about who we're going to marry, to committ our life to "til death do us part" before we do it. This is supposed to help us from making the mistake of marrying someone that we are not suited for in the first place. Adultery is sex with someone that you are not married to. The woman in question was married to another man first. Therefore, under the law of God, she is still married to him because they made that committment. Only an annulment is the ultimate "Eraser of marriage" An annulment is the "proof" that God was not present in the marriage to begin with. Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34) This is Jesus' advice about how to live an be happy. If we are weighted down by constant worry, than we will never focus on others, on living peacefully. We will always be afraid or in torment. "So do not worry and say, 'What are we to eac?' or 'What are we to drink?' or 'What are we to wear?' All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly FAther knows that you need them all. But seek first the Kingdom of God and his reighteousness, and all these things will be given unto you beside." (Matt 6: 31-3) Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20) "Do not store up treasures for yourself here on Earth, where moth and decay destroy, and theives break in and steal. But store up your treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay will destroy. For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be." (Matt 6: 19-21) Bassically? You can't take it with you. What's the point of having all the shit in the world if you're just going to die and end up in hell or purgatory or wherever you think you're going to go, but not have any heart any soul left? You get only what you put into life, and the after life. Karma. Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25) This passage refers to one man who was very sad because he wanted to follow Jesus, but knew not how. Jesus told him how. Give away the one thing that you cherish the most-- Weath-- money... The man couldn't do that. He couldn't give up his wealth to live with Jesus and the other deciples. He had his wealth on Earth, but his future in heaven? Only God knows, but the point is that no ammount of money on earth will ensure your future in heaven. Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33) Again, "But store up your treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay will destroy. For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be." This is about doing good on Earth. Living lavishly while others starve vs. living well and helping others to live well. Remember, these teachings were given to the people of Jerusalem, of Isreal, of the Jordan HOW many years ago? The basics still work, and can be applied to TODAY, the present time. They sound awkward because they were said in the languages of the people of the past. The words applied to the simplicity of the time. Now, it's more appropos to say, "Live well, but help others." Back then, "Dirt poor" meant dirt poor. In my neighborhood, "Dirt poor" means that you only have basic cable. The phrasing is simple because the people were. Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27) No, Jesus said, "Do not work for he food that perishes, but work for the food that endures for eternal life." This means, do not enter the rat race of life and expect that this will provide you food and clothing and such. For what good are these things if you lose sight of eternal life in Jesus? The word "food" in this case means "Material objects which fall away," while the food of eternal life refers to all things which bring us closer to God. Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28) "But I (Jesus) say to you, if you look at a woman with lust in your eyes, you have already committed adultary." Meaning that if you are LUSTING after women, you are in essence cheating on the woman you will someday marry. You are not looking at the woman with respect, but with sexual wonton desire-- Not a desire to love her, to marry her-- But with SELFISH desires. Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11) No, oversimplified. "Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you falsely because of me." In other words, if you're fighting for my cause, for that of God's, as a missionary or a witness, you are already blessed in the eyes of God. If you are persecuted and yet carry on, you are doubely blessed. Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16) This is a GREAT oversimplification. This is virtually unconnectable with the actual verse. "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, then with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anyting but to be thrown out and trampled under foot." Meaning: Salt was a common proverb in Biblical times. Salt was the spirit of food. If salt lost its flavor, then people couldn't eat their stale, tasteless, rotting food. Without salt, people would actually go hungry because they couldn't eat their food without covering the horrible taste. The salt is another image of God, who takes away the bad things in our souls so that we can live. Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26) This is taken from a parable about Ten Gold Coins. To paraphrase, it involves servants given the responcibility to engage in trade with ten gold coins left by their master. The master is God, and the servants are the Old Testament Jews. The coins are the teachings of God and Moses and Abraham. The trade is interaction with other people. The point is to make the coins multiply. Thereby spreading God's word. In the parable, the servants who engage in the most trade inherit the most land, etc. Those who hide the coins (bury them) to protect them from bad business deals are chastized. "Why did you not put this money in the bank so that I would at least have interest owed to me on my return?" the master says. In other words, don't bury the teachings of God, but share them with others, or at least keep them in your own heart to flourish-- but on't FORGET ABOUT THEM. If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30) "Give to everyone who asks of you." This doesn't mean gove to everyone who asks of you EVERYTHING that they ask for. Give what you can, even if it is only your compassion. "IF someone steals you cloak, do not demand it back." Defend your property, as is your right, but know that obsessing and dwelling and growing anger will not return that cloak. Do not demand. Though it is your property, ask for it back, but do not accuse. This was advice for much simpiler times-- people didn't steal because their dad's beat them when they were little or because mommy drank-- they stole to stay alive. Ask for the cloak back, and maybe you can find some other way to help that person. If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39) Jesus says "When someone strikes you, turn the other cheek." This was actually an act of strength. To "turn the other cheek" was a wordless act of difiance. When one was hit in biblical times, it was customary to hit someone with a back hand. To do so was to lower the status of the person getting hit. It was an insult AND a hit in the face. To turn the other cheek was to offer the other other side of the face, and it made the hitter hit you with an open hand, the palm. This was an act of equality. You and the hitter were now on the same level. I don't know why this is, EXACTLY, but it was custom at the time. If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40) If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41) If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42) These passages are under "Teaching about retaliation." As in, retaliation, as the people of the time knew it, meant VENGANCE and STONING and KILLING, etc. Jesus was trying to move people away from those thoughts and move them towards thoughts of peace. The punishment should never exceed the injury done. Jesus said that whoever calls somebody a "fool" shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22), Under "Teachings about anger." This is all about how Jesus was trying to get people to NOT be angry with one another when one was wronged. It was about NOT condemning people, about not judging them, about NOT calling them silly names. You condemn yourself when you condemn others. yet he called people "fools" himself (Matthew 23:17). Jesus=God. God is the judge of all. Plain and simple, God can call us whatever He wants. He is the supreme and ONLY judge of humanity. We on earth try civil and criminal crimes. God is the only one who can judge character and soul content. Jesus was the Son of God, his spawn, but he was also God. Hence the trinity. Regarding his own truthfulness, Jesus gave two conflicting opinions: "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" (John 5:31), and "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true" (John 8:14). This is about Jesus talking about his own deeds and how that testimony couldn't be verified beause HE was the one ON trial FOR his deeds. He then follows up saying that OTHERS, deciples, other witnesses, COULD be trusted because they were swearing that it was true, they were in mass numbers, and they were upstanding members of society. You don't let an accused murder free because he SAYS he's innocent. You let him free if other's PROVE that he is innocent. It goes to Jesus not being able to brag about himself-- he didn't have it in him. It was a flaw he didn't posses. Jesus says that because he is not one man, but human AND devine, part of God, and yet FULLY God, he CAN testify and be validated. He is GOD, therefore he speaks truth. The point is, he was ultimately persecuted and killed for BLASPHEMY. He responded that he WAS GOD, not JUST the Son of God. He was more than one man. Jesus COULD defend himself though, because he was backed by his Father, GOD. The "humble" Jesus said that he was "greater than the temple" (Matt 12:6), Jesus' quote is "I say to you, something greater than the temple is here." Something greater than the Old Testament law was upon them. It was the advent of a new way of looking at God. "greater than Jonah" (Matthew 12:41), The quote is "There is something greater than Jonah here." This is under the heading "The Demand for a Sign." The people were demanding that Jesus perform a sign to PROVE that he was the Son of God. The point was to show that Jonah, a profit, one whom the people LISTENED TO, was not the PINACLE of all of God's servants, that JESUS was greater than Jonah. HE WAS GOD in human form. and "greater than Solomon" (Matthew 12:42). The quote is "There is something greater than Soloman here." This is in reference to the great King Soloman, who was wise and respected and honoured. Jesus was greater than Soloman, a king Earth because JESUS=God, GOD is the King of Heaven. He appeared to suffer from a dictator's "paranoia" when he said, "He that is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). This IS a direct quote, but out of context. I encourage that all who are interested to READ this passage. (Matt 12:22-32) It is about Jesus curing a demoniac. Jesus drove out BEELZEBUB from the man. "Any kingdom (human or otherwise) devided against itself will be laid to waste." You can't be good and bad. You're one or the other. You're either with God, or against him. This wasn't paranoia; this was fact. You are either going to hell or to heaven; you're not going to both (remember that purgatory, by definition, is a transitionary place of brief punishment, meant to prepare you for appreciating heaven in its fullness.) The man could not be WITH God because he was full of Satan. He could no be with Satan in fullness once Satan was driven out and the Holy Spirit replaced Satan. quote: Do you TRULY belive that? quote: Hell already existed in the Old Testament, the times of Abraham and Moses. What CHANGED about Hell was people's concept of it. It was not JUST fire and brimstone-- it was a place absent of God (by definition). Jesus gave people new ways to stive for heaven. | ||||
| MrQuotes NO!!! You can't have any smiley faces in your status!!! G.O.O.F.B.A.H.G.S. Missile Command | posted on 04-15-2001 @ 11:30 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Nov. 00 | great just what i need, someone who knows what hes talking about, now i cant make an argument i just cant help myself, im feeling like im going out of my head uncanny strange deja vu, but i dont mind, i have to find the truth. | ||||
| GonzoStyle | posted on 04-15-2001 @ 11:30 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 70 | i agree with Jon on his point i am a jew as well and very proud of my people as should any man or woman be. Frank Nitti once said "any man who is ashamed of his name and heritage is not a man in the first place." I equate it to people from brooklyn it's not just pride but we are very territorial and have a sincere fuckin pride about being from brooklyn. Just like i have pride in being jewish, it is about what my people went through and where they got to. Pride like anyone should have in who they are and where they came from. Cling to what is real not to what you are force fed.  Have you come here for forgiveness Have you come to raise the dead Have you come here to play Jesus To the lepers in your head She-Mail Me Here | ||||
Nay. We are but men. ROCK. The man with the plan. | posted on 04-15-2001 @ 11:32 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | quote: Sure, that's true.... but who's to say that that passage and any other one you can find were not just written by some guy or guys that wanted to make the world a better place? How do you know that these words were really spoken by a real person? I'm sure The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf were written to change the world as well - may not have worked as well as the Bible, but look at how many Nazis there were and how many Communists there were and even still are.  Me droogies: Two positions currently available. | ||||
| katya_ann That's Miss Jesus Cooze to you! | posted on 04-15-2001 @ 11:32 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | BTW, in case you couldn't tell, I AM a pretty devout Catholic. I am not a Bible thumper. The only reason I went so far as to take Gonzo's post point by point was because the quotes were so over-simplified and so taken out of context. The ONLY thing that even came CLOSE to "offending me" was the fact that Gonzo's post sounded like propoganda, not opinion. I'm not offended AT ALL, and I appreciate Gonzo's firm beliefs. | ||||
| The Brain | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 12:03 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Feb. 01 | quote: I think the best way to respond would be to say that even if the biblical Jesus were little more than a figurehead, created to be a singular voice for the philosophies of those who became the early Christians... then so be it. If the words being quoted from the Bible were perhaps doctored, but the ideals behind those words are genuine... then so be it. Yes, in essence I'm saying that we could be embracing a lie as the source of our faith... but is that not what we have been doing up until this point? We don't absolutely know what is (or isn't) beyond this world, or solar system, or universe. The best we can do is say what we believe to be true and hope it turns out to be the correct assumption. Would it really be so bad to embrace these particular words, however false they may or may not be, if only because they have the potential to eventually ring true? That is, if we embrace the rhetoric of "Do unto others...", it becomes true; the words are no longer just a hollow slogan, they have real significance.  "ARE YOU PONDERING WHAT I'M PONDERING?" | ||||
| DX-Bitch | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 12:47 AM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 01 | ok this may just be the hair dye sinking into my brain but if none of this is real then be married by a priest in a church in the "eyes of god" why don't we just have ordinary people somewhere (not vagas) do that for us? I have never really belived in the god thing but for a lot of people like myself, when you lose someone very close to you its kinda comforting to think that they will be with "god" ina wonderful place and never be sick or hurting or anything ever again. It gives people hope when they have run out of it I know that i have been there on more then one occation. I'm not saying everone should be like this but a lot of people are and for a lot of people they need that hope to survive. ok i'll shut up now...  "when I die bury me up-side-down so the world can kiss my ass!" | ||||
Nay. We are but men. ROCK. The man with the plan. | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 12:51 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | quote: We do, they're called Justices of the Peace. They marry people in the eyes of the state, not god. And Brain - "Do unto others.." can be thought of as saying "an eye for an eye" - do we want to go that far? We have it, somewhat, in the death penalty.... but to make it "true" the way you describe it, everyone has to practice it, for everything.... I'm agnostic. All I'm saying is that I don't know whether it's based on god or based on some nutcase in a hut on the outskirts of Judea. Me droogies: Two positions currently available. | ||||
| katya_ann That's Miss Jesus Cooze to you! | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 4:14 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | Being married in "God's eyes" (by a priest, or by a priest in a Catholic Church) is one requirement of a Catholic marriage. God is present in the marriage-- The Holy Spirit is present-- God has given His blessing, and the couple are joined BY GOD. Similar to reconciliation (confession), the Catholic priest is "standing in for God" in body. In confession, Catholics believe that you are not confessing to a PRIEST. You are confessing directly to GOD. God is joining the couple in HOLY matrimony. If Go is present, the love, the trust, the honour, the respect, is there. This is no gaurantee that the couple WILL, in fact, live together happily FOREVER. Even after the vows are taken, there is no 100% gaurantee. Only God knows what is to become of us, and He doesn't give us sneak previews. We do our best to live our lives. When we screw up, we attempt to make things right. It's a responcibility that Catholics have to marry in the Church (not just IN a church, but in the Church = with God present IN the vows, marriage). This shows that they are serious about their VOWS. This does not mean that two Catholics married in a civil ceremony DO NOT have God with them. There is not way to PROVE that. But Catholics BELIEVE that God IS DEFINETELY present in a marriage joined in the Church (with God, in the Catholic tradition). | ||||
| Mi1o Yambag | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 4:44 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | quote: You've got a good point there. What I meant, and should have said in the first place, is that I try to live my life reletively closely to the teachings of the Bible. As for Catholicism, I'm Catholic because I was raised that way. Pretty much all of the doctrines and specific rituals, as near as I can tell, were created by people in order to satisfy their definition of what is morally right. Just because a priest tells me that I'm going to hell for not adhering to the doctines doesnt mean that God sees things the same way.  Smoke Weed Everyday | ||||
| scmods Break into my dad's pc and go to the porno directory. It takes a lot to freak me out, and his archive can do it. Time & Time Again. | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 11:03 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Feb. 01 | Damn interesting, all. I need to start shopping for religions as I have had it forced upon me growing up, too. The Catholic Church and I have different views on many topics and I can not fully support them. I feel I need religion so as to not fear death - I am comforted by the idea that my soul (as dark as it may be) carries on. My former fiancee is quite religious and so is her family -- I have never met such nasty people! Such a contradiction to the beliefs they say to hold so firmly. Confusing to see that some of their Church friends are nasty as well. Just AFU if u ask me. Good points everyone! SigPic in testing phase | ||||
| GonzoStyle | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 2:09 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 70 | quote: damn i'd hate to see the good lords appoitment book. Why with all the miracles and the prayers to be answered and the worlds problems. I guess weddings must be the top of GODS priority list. Ladies and Gentlemen we at OA.com have figured out why the divorce rate is so fuckin high. GOD is not making all of these weddings and they are not sanctioned by the commision. Have you come here for forgiveness Have you come to raise the dead Have you come here to play Jesus To the lepers in your head She-Mail Me Here | ||||
| katya_ann That's Miss Jesus Cooze to you! | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 3:44 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | quote: Well, like I said, Gonz, there is no gaurantee on anything. People do what they do, for their own reasons. They go with God, they go against Him, they fuck up, they fix things, they don't fix things. There is not 100% gaurantee on anything, I believe, except the Word of God.  ---walk it off, deek | ||||
| GonzoStyle | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 5:21 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 70 | umm God you have the schmidt wedding at 2:30 and the jones wedding at 2:45. ME DAMN IT!!!! send my son he's gotta make up for messing up that second coming. Stayed up all night drinking wine and missed his appoitment. Now we gotta weight another 999 years. Have you come here for forgiveness Have you come to raise the dead Have you come here to play Jesus To the lepers in your head She-Mail Me Here | ||||
| DannyNoonan | posted on 04-16-2001 @ 6:11 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | I spent Sat. in my "church" (the golf course) and Sun. with my big NJ family yest. for Easter so, I post late in this "good" thread (28.8 connection doesn't help)... I posted in another thread that I went to Catholic schools for my entire educational experience...wouldn't trade it for anything...but my parents never took us to church on Sundays and my sister and I never wanted to go. I just took a sense of values from the experience and I think whatever god is (he, she, it...) is cool with it. For the atheists that have posted, I have a question (this is in no way condemnation but a challenge) and you MAY be able to answer this: Assuming this universe is real (Cogito ergo sum...), how do we get something from nothing (taking into account the currently accepted "Big Bang" Theory...no jokes, please!)??? I believe this was one of the principles of Thomas Aquinas and it was called the "Prime Mover" theory. Also, the "Clockmaker" theory-unbelievably intricately detailed, functioning universe-is another favorite of mine, first proposed by the uncle of Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World (a personal fav). Any answer to this "challenge" is welcome... This message was edited by DannyNoonan on 4-16-01 @ 6:37 PM | ||||
| Page
1
2
3
Displaying 51-65 of 65 messages in this thread. |