I really don't know if anyone here actually supports Bush...well besides Hoon anyway. But I'll throw this out there anyway.
I know those that support Bush seem totally OK with the reports of the NSA doing taps, with out the use of the FISA. Because it is all in the name of fighting terrorism.
We also are aware of the Bush admin paying media figures to do reports that support their actions an policies.
Let's not forget the "Enemy Combatant" inprisonment policy, even being applied to Jose Padilla, possibly a criminal, but an American citizen.
Also remember, the reports, and some proof, of the FBI spying on domestic anti-war and anti-Bush groups an members. Even sending undercover officers to infiltrate protests in New York City during the Republican Convention.
I can go on, but I have to ask, is there a point, a move, or a action the Bush administration could take, in the name of the "War on Terror", that you would say is going too far?
I would hope to try to keep this serious. I mean, I am sure no one would be ok with the mass killing of one group of people in some fashion like the Nazis.
I mean, how far is too far to go, in the War on Terror? What rights should not be breached, or what laws should not be violated?
yeah, i think we washed away the last of the hard core believers when Jersey Thunder left the board.
when they start abusing the patriot act or other measures to start prosecuting anything other than situations directly relating to terrorism, then it becomes a problem.
reports say that a plan to destroy the brooklyn bridge at rush hour was thwarted because of the NSA situation.
Call me crazy but after watching husbands and wives jump to their deaths on 911, i don't have the audacity to look a firefighters orphan in the face and tell them that i'm sorry their daddy had to die but i can't allow the government to stop it from happening again if it means a g man might be listening to me order a pizza on the phone.
little by little our freedoms are slowly being taken. you dont see it as bad when it is a small thing, but after a while all of those small things add up.
if you call making terrorist plots with overseas accomplices, 'freedoms'... then you've lost touch with reality.
Hoon Wrote:when they start abusing the patriot act or other measures to start prosecuting anything other than situations directly relating to terrorism, then it becomes a problem.
reports say that a plan to destroy the brooklyn bridge at rush hour was thwarted because of the NSA situation.
Call me crazy but after watching husbands and wives jump to their deaths on 911, i don't have the audacity to look a firefighters orphan in the face and tell them that i'm sorry their daddy had to die but i can't allow the government to stop it from happening again if it means a g man might be listening to me order a pizza on the phone.
Where is the proof that this happened, what reports are you referring to? i mean i think we all know that this administration has had trouble with reports.
others would be saying the same thing about what we know as 911 today, if it had been thwarted.
i just think it's too bad that something has to materialize and be horrific beofre it's taken seriously by the same people who will then complain about the lack of prevention of it afterwards.
the admin is in a no win situation.
you're bitter and threatened -much like the casette tapes was by the cd.
Arpikarhu Wrote:little by little our freedoms are slowly being taken. you dont see it as bad when it is a small thing, but after a while all of those small things add up.
Arpi is 1000% correct.
I'm amazed at how many people will blindly follow whatever the so called 'leader' says just because he's in 'my party.'
The founding fathers must be so ashamed at how little we are doing to protect and defend our once great Republic from evil within our own country.
A Nazi is still a Nazi, no matter how many lines of shit they spew about defending our homeland or our 'freedoms.' All the while wiping their asses with the very piece of paper they swore an oath to defend.
DEATH TO ALL TYRANTS.
the nsa issue we're discussing is targeting domestic terrorism only. unless you are against stopping doemstic terrorism and replay's of 911, don't you think you should wait until it's wrongfully used for something we should get irritated about?
do you really think we can effectivly fight the war on terror as it presents itself today by not tweaking the very system they use to carry it out? the very system in any other case people complain is out dated, ineffective and comical?
the hypocrisy to laugh at our system in one breath then pretend to worry about protecting it, in the next is making me giggle.
it is being wrongfully used.
So spying on everyone will help to catch a few evil doer's?
Would that also include the strip club owner who was the first person arrested under the Patriot Act in Las Vegas. What threat to National Security was he?
Hoon Wrote:when they start abusing the patriot act or other measures to start prosecuting anything other than situations directly relating to terrorism, then it becomes a problem.
Well let's see shall we...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lasvegastribune.com/20050722/editorials3.html">http://www.lasvegastribune.com/20050722 ... ials3.html</a><!-- m -->
Quote:Politicians indicted on multiple counts of accepting thousands of dollars in bribes from the owner of local strip clubs in exchange for rolling back regulations of what strippers can do.
But what has this got to do with terrorism?
Nothing at all, everybody involved agrees. Yet FBI agents in Las Vegas used a provision of the USA Patriot Act to obtain the financial records and hundreds of phone taps of several suspects in the case, from San Diego to Las Vegas.
It is one of more than a dozen cases in which federal investigators have relied on the Patriot Act -- passed a month after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as a response to terrorism -- for purposes unrelated to homeland security, according to The New York Times.
You were saying?
-how is it being wrongfully used?
-do you really think they're listening at the local donuts store janitor ordering mop heads on the phone?
-i'll need an accurate and credible link to this 'strip club owner' story.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103812,00.html">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103812,00.html</a><!-- m -->
Might be more up your alley...
Sir O Wrote:Hoon Wrote:when they start abusing the patriot act or other measures to start prosecuting anything other than situations directly relating to terrorism, then it becomes a problem.
Well let's see shall we...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lasvegastribune.com/20050722/editorials3.html">http://www.lasvegastribune.com/20050722 ... ials3.html</a><!-- m -->
Quote:Politicians indicted on multiple counts of accepting thousands of dollars in bribes from the owner of local strip clubs in exchange for rolling back regulations of what strippers can do.
But what has this got to do with terrorism?
Nothing at all, everybody involved agrees. Yet FBI agents in Las Vegas used a provision of the USA Patriot Act to obtain the financial records and hundreds of phone taps of several suspects in the case, from San Diego to Las Vegas.
It is one of more than a dozen cases in which federal investigators have relied on the Patriot Act -- passed a month after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as a response to terrorism -- for purposes unrelated to homeland security, according to The New York Times.
You were saying?
that's an editorial. not a news article.
editorials aren't held up for their credibility and adherence to facts. i have a feeling there was a reason the money laundering was tied to or came to light - directly or indirectly with terrorism.
Sir O Wrote:<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103812,00.html">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103812,00.html</a><!-- m -->
Might be more up your alley...
that's more like it. i would've accepted something from alCNNjazeera as well, as long as it was an actual article - not an editorial.
Quote:According to an FBI official in Las Vegas, investigators used a provision in the Patriot Act that allows investigators easy access to the financial records of persons suspected of terrorism or money laundering.
Lets wait until the case is finished to see what ties to terrorism there are. the investigation is on going and probably can't reveal everything right now. IF it's found there are no ties to terrosim the evidence gathered from the patriot act should not be admissible, in my opinion. Like everything, it'll need tweaking and those abusing it's original intent should be admonished. But to scrap the damn thing because it's not perfect the first time is foolish.
That's like burning your house down to get rid of a mouse.
Wait, you want to wait and see if strippers in Las Vegas are tied to terrorism?
You CAN NOT be serious.
Quote:"The administration presented the Patriot Act to the Congress two years ago as a carefully tailored and limited piece of legislation specific to targeting terrorism. And now they're using it for purposes that are obviously and completely unrelated to terrorism," Barr told Foxnews.com.
Once a liar, always a liar. Sieg Heil, Herr Bush.