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 Displaying 1-25 of 42 messages in this thread. |
| Posted By | Discussion Topic: Ignorance must be bliss | ||||
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| Jon Benet Norton G.O.O.F.B.A.H.G.S. GTA3 Criminal Activity Specialist | posted on 08-02-2001 @ 11:30 PM |    | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Dec. 00  | I bring this up because it's something that has been kinda weighing on my mind for awhile now and I wanted to get your ideas on it. The other night I invited a friend from college over to my apartment to hang out and bullshit and catch up. He decides to bring a few of his friends with him, which is fine by me more input into the conversation. Well one of the guys he brings with him is this nationalistic, ignorant bastard. The topic of our country comes up and this kid starts going on and on about how this is HIS country and all the hardships his forefathers had to endure to make this country great and all this other bullshit. To say the least this struck a nerve in me and the things he was saying hurt, really bad. All because they were so unbelievably ignorant and one-sided. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for freedom of speech and speaking your mind, but I am also for debating and making valid arguments. Yeah yeah, the Europeans came to this country and built it up to a super power and they had their hardships, I know all this. But what about the Native Americans that were already here? Now mind you I am talking about a period of about 200 years.When the Europeans came over they brought many great things, but they also brought over disease. Not only that but they forced Native Americans onto small pieces of land, raped their women and their livelyhood, hunting. Native Americans died of starvation and new incurable diseases. And this guy has the nerve to call his ancestors heroes? From what I have studied it seems more like they were murderers and rapists. Granted, they were innovative and survivors, but they had to hurt other human beings to get there. You can speak your mind all you want, but look at it from both sides before you open your mouth. You all can tool on me, , argue with me, agree, disagree, whatever. Like I said it was weighing on my mind and I wanted to get it out to the masses.  Check out my band at: Visit this Website "The saddest thing in life is wasted talent" -Machiavelli- My adopted newbies are sweetasacherry and F the S out of her A E-Mail Me | ||||
| GonzoStyle | posted on 08-02-2001 @ 11:48 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 70 | quote: You had thomas jeffersons great great great grandson over? Sweet i didnt know they let black people into your neighborhood.   If I could capture the rage of today's youth and bottle it Crush the glass from my bare hands and swallow it Then spit it back in the faces of you racists and hypocrites who think the same shit but don't say shit You Liberace's, Versace's, and you nazis Watch me, cause you thinkin you got me in this hot seat You motherfuckers wanna JUDGE me cause you're NOT me She-Mail Me Here | ||||
| FoundryMusicScott | posted on 08-02-2001 @ 11:48 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Aug. 00 | Great, a philosophical history discussion. I can help. Throughout history, someone always loses. If that's for better or for worse, it still happens. It is human nature to expand, explore, and even conquer. Even though our relations with the FIRST Americans (I hate the term Native Americans) was cordial and based on trade, humans and Europeans especially would never be content with just remaining where they established themselves and accept it. Furthermore, neither the great civilizations of the Western Hemisphere- the Mayans, Incas, Navajo, Pawnee, Cherokee, and Aztecs lived happy lives content with where they were. Each tribe desired to expand their empire and conquer a weaker foe. It just so happens that when the Europeans and First Americans met the former was the stronger force. It's like that sea analogy- the algae gets eaten by the fish, whom gets eaten by the bigger fish. And yes, Europeans brought disease to the New World, but it's not like that was intentional. It just happened that way. The gentleman in question is right on a few things- it's his country, but it's everybody's country as well. He just like anyone else has claim to some part of it. Furthermore, his forefathers did fight for what they believed to be right (i.e. the American Revolution, but that's a whole other topic I can discuss if desired), and with French assistance they did a good job of it. As a historian this question comes up constantly. However, this type of occurance has happened throughout history, and human nature has a lot to do with it as well. I won't bring up economic or social factors that contributed greatly to what happened in the New World, for that would bore virtually on this board. The major thing that can be said here is that history cannot be changed, but should be interpreted for what it is and explain its consequences on the life of this planet. If after all of the conquering and killing of First Americans created a despotic or anarchial society, then one could say that what happened in the late fifteenth and early sixteen centuries was a great trajedy. However, I feel that what has transpired since Colombus' voyage has produced a great nation and a world power that attempts to assist other nations of the world not so lucky as ours. In that, some kind of good can be said. If our nation was as it is but contemptous to boot, then again, a great trajedy. I think despite what occurred at the hands of the Spanish and English empires created a great nation that does not sit on its laurels but gives to others whenever it can. I'd love to debate this more- let me know what you think. "Glen honey, I have a question for you- what do you do for a living?" "Hey I have a question for you too- why are you still here?" Family Guy- Glen Quagmire, "Stewie's Addicted to Crack" episode. | ||||
| Jon Benet Norton G.O.O.F.B.A.H.G.S. GTA3 Criminal Activity Specialist | posted on 08-02-2001 @ 11:55 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Dec. 00 | The reason why this hit such a nerve with me is that I am Native American and he was looking at it so one sided (Hence the title of this thread). I know it's everyones country, but the person in question had a whole "I was here first attitude". Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz WRONG! He didn't see it from all sides and thats what bothered me. My argument was just to try and make him see the other side of things, but to no avail. I would love to sit and debate about this, but A) I pretty much agree with what you are saying and B) the contents of this thread is pretty much the extent of my history knowledge on this subject. But dont let this be the end of it. I encourage all the opinions of all who read this to put in their 2 cents.quote: I might have had an easier time getting through to him if he were black. :) Check out my band at: Visit this Website "The saddest thing in life is wasted talent" -Machiavelli- My adopted newbies are sweetasacherry and F the S out of her A E-Mail Me | ||||
| FoundryMusicScott | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 12:09 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Aug. 00 | Okay, I see. The reason your 'friend' thinks like that is probably because he believes that, as you said, everything great that has derived from this nation is due to the European settlement. And while he is basically correct in his assertion, I can't imagine why a college student would think that his ancestors 'were here first.' However, as a First American descendent, you brought the other side of the debate about the original inhabitants of the New World. Unfortunately, as this discussion has been around the annals of history more so than Civil War Origins, I fear that you two will remain at an impass. He will grant you the point of your ancestors being here first, but will state that it was his that made the country great. He will most probably agree that what happened to the First Americans was a trajedy, but look at what was created from it. Lately, that has been the result of said argument. I wonder if I'm correct or not in my suggestion. I do welcome other opinions, but history is not debated too much on this board and I revel in the opportunity when it does. I thank you. "Glen honey, I have a question for you- what do you do for a living?" "Hey I have a question for you too- why are you still here?" Family Guy- Glen Quagmire, "Stewie's Addicted to Crack" episode. | ||||
| Lord Duvious | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 12:33 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jul. 01 | Scott, are you wearing a powdered wig and a monocle right now? j/k My two cents: I don't wan to get into everything that you two have discuss, because most of the historical nature of the topic has already been discussed. I would like to point out, however, that I think you may be generalizing a bit JBN. Saying that the European settlers of this country were "rapists and murderers" more than they were great people is lumping the whole of a population into one category. Were there rapists, murderers and thieves among them? Absolutely. Were they all that way? Of course not. It's funny how throughout history the actions of a few color our thinking about entire groups. I know that's not what you meant, I just wanted to get that off my chest. I hate the term "Native American" too. I was born here, I'm a native American. Aboriginies (sp?) would probably be a little more accurate.  Proud Graduate of the AFDude Academy Now I have my wings | ||||
| FoundryMusicScott | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 12:57 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Aug. 00 | The only thing, Lord Duvious, is that there are no "Native Americans" to the Western Hemisphere. Only First Americans and Americans. You, as one born here, are an American. Not much else. Sorry. "Glen honey, I have a question for you- what do you do for a living?" "Hey I have a question for you too- why are you still here?" Family Guy- Glen Quagmire, "Stewie's Addicted to Crack" episode. | ||||
| Sephiroth | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 1:01 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Dec. 00 | Where is my Fucking T-Shirt? Well, it seems like alot of you fucking morons have questions. So, just Email or IM me so i can insult your intelligence. | ||||
| WoundedAngel Absolutely spectacular, and 1337 as hell. | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 1:03 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jan. 01 | JBN, I agree with your argument but as Lord Duvious has stated, not all of the early settlers can be categorized into one lump. It is true that when settlers first arived into the New World, much of what they brought and did was disasterous. There WAS disease, murder, rape and you must not forget that many Native Americans were separated from their families and used as slaves. Unfortunately, our country was founded on all this. Now, here, I believe the question at hand is: Were all the hardships endured worth it for the outcome? I believe so. | ||||
| FoundryMusicScott | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 1:20 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Aug. 00 | Wounded Angel, my wildest dream would be for people to stop using the term Native Americans. Other than that, the only group thee can place in the non-violence category are the Quakers, but other settlers did the dirty work for them to allow Quaker expansion. No one escaped the settling of North America without blood on their hands, but like Wounded Angel has stated- a decent society has been built and can only hope to improve from there. "Glen honey, I have a question for you- what do you do for a living?" "Hey I have a question for you too- why are you still here?" Family Guy- Glen Quagmire, "Stewie's Addicted to Crack" episode. | ||||
| The Painter 1/2 a bottle of Jack Daniels... it's a cure-all | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 6:11 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Sep. 00 | quote:That's true. The Indians really weren't a peace loving group at one with nature and themselves. There were wars between the various tribes all the time. Very bloody wars.Indians didn't have technology. Hell the didn't even have the wheel. They were bound to lose. I'm not saying what the government did to them was right: broken treaties, trail of tears, etc... These things are just a part of mans inhumanity to man. When the Indians crossed the land bridge from Asia to North America Via Alaska. I wonder what group of people they wiped out when they got here.  This message was edited by The Painter on 8-3-01 @ 6:48 AM | ||||
| WoundedAngel Absolutely spectacular, and 1337 as hell. | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 1:17 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jan. 01 | I don't see what exactly is wrong with the term "Native American". I don't consider any of the people in this country real "Americans", other than the Indians. We all have ancestors from other countries, thus I do not consider that native. | ||||
| Lord Duvious | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 1:24 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jul. 01 | You have to look at the definition of the word "native", Angel. My ancestors are Irish, but I've never even been to Ireland. So I guess I am a "native" of nowhere? Scott, I was just throwing out a possibility. Am I to gather that according to you there is really no name we can accurately apply to "Native Americans" other than their tribal affilations? Proud Graduate of the AFDude Academy | ||||
| bluetarp | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 1:26 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Yeah, don't forget how the Iroquois tribes waged war and had there own form of genocide. I do not mean to start a big war here myself, but this must be kept in perspective. So many groups wish to proclaim their down troddenness. I too am part Indian/Native american/whatever the fuck. When the Irish and Italians first came over, they too were given second class citizen status. Now the African/Asian/Hispanics are the "Primary Victims". Too much revisionist history leads to arguments nobody will ever win. The great melting pot takes some stirring to really blend the contents, but as long as some contents stratify, some will always claim to be unequal. Try living in the other parts of the world before saying our current state of the country is so bad. Ignorance is on both sides of this issue. Can't we all just get along? Heaaa fishy fishy fishy fishy. And it went, wherever I, did go! | ||||
| Jon Benet Norton G.O.O.F.B.A.H.G.S. GTA3 Criminal Activity Specialist | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 2:58 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Dec. 00 | Jesus, what have I done? I was just trying to point out the fact that some people in this world should not say things without seeing all sides. But this has turned into a good discussion.quote: I'm still working the design you pushy fuckin slope! :) When they are done you will know. Check out my band at: Visit this Website "The saddest thing in life is wasted talent" -Machiavelli- My adopted newbies are sweetasacherry and F the S out of her A E-Mail Me | ||||
| Shelle Bink True star of the celebrity softball game: the redhead in section 101. | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 4:13 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jul. 01 | I'll put in my two cents when I get home from work... this is a sensitive subject for me. | ||||
| JoyUTC | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 5:13 PM | | |||
| Hanger-On Registered: Jan. 01 | I agree Shelle, this is sensitive for me too. I have to say, I love all the fun and games on the board, but a good, interesting topic to discuss/debate/hoot and holler over? SWEET... More later when I get home.  "This is, This is Legal isn't it?" | ||||
| McBourbon | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 5:24 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jul. 01 | Yeah...who knew JBN had this power within him to start such a riveting discussion? My take on it is this: I'm all for Indian pride, the recognition of the tribes that existed here before us. I went to Miami University here in Ohio and learned all about the Miami tribe who wanted to change our school's mascot from the Redskins to the Redhawks. I live in a city where Indians protest the logo that the Cleveland Indians use...I even lived in DC for a while and had to hear minor uproars about changing the Washington Redskins to some other name. The Indians of this country want to argue for their history but take it away from others who, in all honesty, are celebrating and honoring their heritage. The minute we went PC, the whole thing went to hell. I'm not coming out against Indians (or native Americans as Wounded Angel would put it), but I think it's about time we all left well enough alone, recognize history and not live in it, and get on with our pathetic little lives. We've all got something in our ancestory to be quite ashamed of, no matter where those ancestors came from. Let it go, let the nationalist bastard who started you on this live in his own ignorance, JBN, and enjoy what we have now as a result of all that happened then...regardless of how it happened or who it happened to. We live in the best country on earth. I'm not sure when we'll all get together and realize that that's enough. "Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller  F you....I'm drinkin' and hockey season's comin' up! "You go to the box for two minutes, you know, and....you feel shame...and then you get free." --Denis Lemieux | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 5:45 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | quote: That's not necesarily true but it's an entire new discussion. Also someone said that disease was unintentional. That is not entirely true. It is documented that some Europeans knowlingly spread diseases such as Smallpox in order to kill the tribe and gain land.  Resident Board Socialist Email me here IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought into the International | ||||
| Jon Benet Norton G.O.O.F.B.A.H.G.S. GTA3 Criminal Activity Specialist | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 6:05 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Dec. 00 | quote: Who the fuck are you to say anything about me? You don't know who I am, hence keep your fucking mouth shut when it pertains to me. Apparently you didn't get the point of this topic. I do enjoy what we have, if I didnt I wouldnt be talkin to you on this computer now would I? I started this topic because the guy said somethin that bothered me and I tried to make him see the other side of things. Thats it, period. Nothing more, nothing less. Check out my band at: Visit this Website "The saddest thing in life is wasted talent" -Machiavelli- My adopted newbies are sweetasacherry and F the S out of her A E-Mail Me | ||||
| bluetarp | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 6:08 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Absolutely McBourbon. AM, I'd like to see that documentation. Keep in mind, smallpox was deadly to the Europeans as well. It's not like they had an immunity to it. It looks just like a TeleFunken U-47, you'll love it. With leather? | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 9:24 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Tarp, go here. Though many dispute it there is much evidence to the contrary. I am sure that most colonists did not intentionally give Smallpox to natives but several have intentionally given it as one of the first examples of Biological Warfare. Of course the Europeans were immune but it was far more deadly towards the tribal peoples. Resident Board Socialist Email me here IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought into the International | ||||
| The Painter 1/2 a bottle of Jack Daniels... it's a cure-all | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 10:01 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Sep. 00 | AM, that is questionable at best. If you base your facts on documents like this, it weakens anything you say. | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 10:22 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | That wasn't the only one but I remember a show on the History Channel on this or something similar so I don't remember much of it all I remember was that the settlers intentionally appeared to be friendly and gave them Smallpox to the unknowing natives. Oh here is another site. If you honestly think that settlers that certain(notice how I say certain) settlers killed and raped the indigenous people and drove them to slavery you wouldn't think they would use germ warfare? Resident Board Socialist Email me here IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought into the International | ||||
| WoundedAngel Absolutely spectacular, and 1337 as hell. | posted on 08-03-2001 @ 11:53 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jan. 01 | AM is absolutely right. I have also done research on this topic, along with how the first thanksgiving wasn't all too friendly as loving, as it is now portrayed. And Lord Duvious, I suppose you can call yourself Irish-American (gotta love hypenated titles). Natives of this country were the people who lived here long before great periods of immigration. | ||||
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Displaying 1-25 of 42 messages in this thread. |