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 Displaying 1-25 of 55 messages in this thread. |
| Posted By | Discussion Topic: Democrats want to raise taxes again; Enjoy those tax rebates everybody | ||||
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| TeenWeek what's a status? | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 7:26 AM |    | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00  | House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt suggested over the weekend that he will push to raise taxes if the Democrats win control of the House next year and the budget deficits return. Mr. Gephardt's call for income-tax increases, reported in the Des Moines Register on Sunday, triggered a volley of criticism from Republican Party officials, who warned yesterday that the Democrats were plotting to repeal President Bush's tax cuts as soon as they returned to power. "The message is clear: Republicans giveth and Democrats taketh away. Americans are just now receiving their tax-refund checks, and Democrats are already trying to yank it back so they can spend more on wasteful Washington programs," said Virginia Gov. James S. Gilmore III, chairman of the Republican National Committee. "The ink isn't even dry on the tax-rebate checks, yet the leader of the Democrats in the House of Representatives is already plotting ways to raise taxes," said House Republican Conference Committee Chairman J.C. Watts Jr. of Oklahoma. Mr. Gephardt's remarks came just as the first of nearly $40 billion in tax rebates were mailed, and as the economy continued to show weakness amid rising unemployment. Less than 48 hours after the Register story hit the news wires, Mr. Gephardt's office issued a statement flatly denying the newspaper report. Speaking at a Democratic congressional fund-raising event in Des Moines on Saturday, Mr. Gephardt said Democrats "did what was right" when Congress raised income and gas taxes in 1993 under President Clinton, adding "I'll do it again" if the Democrats win control of the House in next year's midterm congressional elections. Mr. Gephardt prefaced his remarks about raising taxes by predicting that the Congressional Budget Office would soon issue a report forecasting that the budget would fall back into a deficit within six months. If that happens, the Bush administration will attempt to dip into funds set aside for Social Security and Medicare, he said. "Let me tell you something. I'm glad we did what was right in 1993, and I'll do it again because I believe in being fiscally responsible with the taxpayers' money," he said. The Des Moines newspaper published his remarks in a story under the headline "Tax Increase Possible, Gephardt Says." But the Democratic leader, who is considering another campaign for president, released a statement yesterday morning saying that story's "assumption [that House Democrats would raise taxes] could not be further from the truth." "I never addressed the future of taxes in my remarks because I don't believe they need to be raised. I believe that the Bush administration must work to keep this budget in the black despite an overzealous tax cut that threatens our prosperity," he said. GOP officials were not buying Mr. Gephardt's sudden backpedaling. They noted that he was a fierce opponent of Mr. Bush's 10-year, $1.35 trillion tax cut package and tried to scale it back considerably. "It's clear that Gephardt proposed an idea that will hurt his presidential aspirations and now is backtracking. He's out holding fund-raisers with Jane Fonda and proposing tax increases, and that's not good for your image," said Carl Forti, spokesman for the National Republican Congressional Committee. "It seems to me that the Des Moines Register probably had it right and they were quoting him accurately," Mr. Forti said. House Republican leaders saw Mr. Gephardt's remarks as a political blunder and pummeled him in a flurry of statements. "The Democratic leadership in Congress is so out of touch with American taxpayers, they actually are promoting new tax hikes before families can even make it to Wal-Mart to cash their tax rebate checks," Mr. Watts said. "The differences between the two political parties couldn't be more clear: Republican passes the largest tax relief package in 20 years. And Democrats are still talking about their handiwork in 1993 the largest tax increase in American history," he said. House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert also sharply attacked Mr. Gephardt and his party, saying "we need to find ways to get money back to the people, not back to the federal government." "As the American people get their first dollars from the tax-relief legislation enacted into law by the Congress and President Bush, they should realize that under a Democrat Congress, such tax relief would be short-lived," Mr. Hastert said. "Mr. Gepardt is wrong to want to raise taxes on the American people. The federal government already takes too many dollars from the budget of American families," he said. At a forum on tax-cut policy yesterday, House Majority Leader Dick Armey also raised Mr. Gephardt's weekend remarks and cracked, "I heard that Dick Gephardt has just declared that he wants to retain his current title of minority leader." "The suggestion that we raise taxes in tough economic times is ridiculous," said a spokesman for the Texas Republican. House Republican Whip Tom DeLay, also a Texas Republican, said that "Dick Gephardt's campaign commitments to higher taxes is a vivid reminder of the Democrats' two-step solution to any problem. They expand the government and shrink your wallet." Mr. Gephardt's latest call for higher taxes, just before midterm elections, was similar to remarks he made in June 1999, when he told Democrats in Philadelphia that if they won control of the House in 2000, he would push for higher taxes for education and deeper defense cuts. "You've got to have a combination of taking it out of the defense budget and raising revenue," Mr. Gephardt was quoted by the Philadelphia Inquirer as saying. "I'd be proud to vote for tax increases for schools. You bet I would." | ||||
| Unicron | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 8:27 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Mar. 01 | Democrats Suck......so do Republicans.......vote for no one. Raising taxes and dealing with fucked up politics is the price of living in America..deal with it. As the saying goes, Death And Taxes, the only guaranteed things in life.  | ||||
| Cap'n Fudge | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 8:36 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Wow, a politian who has a fucking clue! What are the odds??? My great "Tax Relief" equals $2.37 a paycheck, a grand total of $64 a year...where in the hell my $300 is actually coming from is beyond me... GW is trying to buy our love like the nerdy kid who would invite everyone from school to his birthday party and then have clowns, magicans and hookers so evevryone would stop giving him wedgies... I hate this job! I hate this goddamn job and I don't need it!!!  capnfudge@opieanthony.com People say that I neglect my responsibilities But I don't mind cause I'll live longer. Need Adoption??? Now accepting applications for the crew. | ||||
| TeenWeek what's a status? | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 8:37 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | What a great time to announce this though right. They are just sending out refund checks (got mine yesterday) and people are happy and than this. Not a good way to get voters. | ||||
| Unicron | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 8:40 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Mar. 01 | i agree.....not a smart move by the dems | ||||
| Snoteater | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 8:55 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | quote: The key phrase is "budget Deficit returns". We never should have gotten an tax cut if we still have this huge budget deficit from the 80's still lying around. Imagine the tax cut that we will get if we are able to clear the nation debt. quote: And what are the name of these programs??? Always a generic vague term to scare the American people. virginia is for Idoits. quote: I couldn't agree more... | ||||
| FeelMyFunBags | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 11:10 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | The reason they have to raise taxes is because of Bush's tax cut...he's taking the surplus economy that the Clinton administration left and slowly throwing it all away. I saw an article in the paper the other day saying that Social Security is really really in bad shape....I'm sorry but I would rather pay higher taxes now and get my benefits later than be paying taxes now and get nothing back in return. The Bush rebate check will all be going back to the govt. in April - I'm not going to even bother cashing it. Your mind won't let you say that you want me Your mind won't ever, never let you have what you want I feel your hunger to taste me Still your mind won't ever let you say Your kind is just the type that should use me But your mind won't seem to let you have The opportunity to abuse me, abuse me Your mind won't even let you feel Savor the addiction, savor the affliction, savor me | ||||
| Spork | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 11:38 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | ARGHHHH!!! Okay folks, this mentality has GOT to stop! I am more than a little disturbed that there are people out there who actually seem to WANT a tax increase!!?? What the hell is WRONG with you? The social security argument leaves me even more flummoxed! Let's see here, you would much rather "pay higher taxes now and get my benefits later than be paying taxes now and get nothing back in return." WHAT? Does anyone understand out there how much social security sucks? Great, it's indexed for inflation, but even so, it has been returning TWO PERCENT a year as its yield!!!! Yes, that's right you would be better off putting your retirement money into a money market or even a frickin' SAVINGS ACCOUNT! So you want people who can only get you a 2% a year return on your investment to take MORE of your money? Fucking ponderous to say the least! I also fail to see how returning MY HARD EARNED TAX DOLLARS TO ME, WHERE THEY BELONG can be seen as a "wasteful" action on the part of George Bush and all those in Congress who passed this latest tax cut. Here's another thing, the economy seems to have gone a little bit into DAS DOOMPER lately, any guesses as to why? Well a lot of people blame Alan Greenspan for raising interest rates. Hmmm, raising interest rates was done to slow economic growth out of fears of inflationary pressures. What happened? Well there was quite a backlash. Corporations just seized up and stopped spending money. Luckily CONSUMERS DID NOT. CONSUMERS have kept the economy going throughout all this turmoil. So yeah, wouldn't that be a great idea, instead of putting MORE money in the pockets of CONSUMERS, we TAKE MORE MONEY OUT of the pockets of consumers. Care to guess where that will put the economy? It's a paradox you see, the crappier the economy is, the more important tax cuts are because they really can act as an economic stimulus. Oh, but far be it for me to actually interject some thought and research and understanding of how economics and the law-making process actually works. Apparently it's much better if you just pick sides and play it like it's a big fucking sporting event. I can live with people's general ignorance about government even though it totally impacts what you can and cannot do, but when people spout off such uninformed opinions with no real evidence and can have their minds played off by the political spin machines, well, it just leaves me baffled. Again, I always have my own biases coming from a socialist country where tax rates are over 50% of your income and the state does everything through its poorly run bureaucracy, but what some would call a bias I call perspective. I always used to say that in Canada during elections they debated who would RAISE your taxes less, in the United States it was always about who would CUT your taxes more. THAT is one of the reasons the UNITED STATES is SO GREAT! Don't you people REALIZE that this country was FOUNDED on TAX REVOLT? Take a look into the Boston Tea Party.  Graduated and Rooned by Rone on 6/16/01 | ||||
| Cap'n Fudge | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 11:45 AM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Hey Spork, you seem to have all the answers...Where is my $300 coming from? The "Tax Refief Act of 2001" is only supposed to be from January 1st, right? So where is this $300 coming from if the annual relief I'm seeing only adds up to $64? If it's coming from the budget surplus, couldn't that money be used to keep the US deficit free for a few more years, and still lower our taxes? As for Social Security benefits, that's money that is kept out of your hands so you'll have something, small though it is, when you can no longer work. If you had it in the bank, there's a darn fine chance it would be spent before you were 65. And don't you think that the whole rebate check now is just a little too desperate an action from the "most powerful man in the world?" I hate this job! I hate this goddamn job and I don't need it!!! capnfudge@opieanthony.com People say that I neglect my responsibilities But I don't mind cause I'll live longer. Need Adoption??? Now accepting applications for the crew. | ||||
| Spork | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 11:50 AM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | The full text of the article is here Visit this Website and I HIGHLY recommend reading the whole thing. This harkens back to earlier Greenspan briefings regarding the fact that we don't WANT to pay down all the debt! The argument sounds a little strange at first, but I guess it's sort of akin to someone who could pay their house off, but don't want to because they get more back in tax deductability for their mortgage. quote: Oh, and yes, if you don't want to "read all the words" I give you a gigantic and hearty "FUCK YOU" for not even bothering to educate yourselves on the REAL issues at play here. These sorts of things ARE important to you and they DO impact your life, whether you wish to accept that or not is another thing. Graduated and Rooned by Rone on 6/16/01 | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 12:34 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | quote: I hate that attitude. By not voting at all you are helping them both. I'm sure there is at least one third party that you would like. Do you know why politicians don't do crap for young people? Because we don't vote. quote: Those were completely different times we didn't even have the need for an income tax back then. Oh and you said this. quote: How about we instead use that money to cut down the debt or tell people to put it away or towards their credit card debt instead of spending right back so the corporations can get their paws on it. The economy is slowing down maybe that money should be saved. The last time the governemnt said to spend spend spend it became disaster. Oh and your last post said that debt is good. Debt simply is a hindrance on people. Politcians constantly bring it up that they helped paid down the debt yet here is a perfectly good chance to now and nothing is happening.  Resident Board Socialist Email me here IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought Syndicate into the International | ||||
| Cap'n Fudge | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 1:24 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Spork, I am well aware that there is an industry that exists only to serve our national debt and that paying off the entire amount would in fact cripple the economy as thousands would be facing unemployment. What I spoke of was collecting and spending what you have and not collecting less and spending more, ala Reaganomics. Ross Perot as crazy as he was made that point quite clearly in 1992: you can't spend more then you earn. Since I read your posting, I'm hoping you will extend the courtesy. Where is everyone's "Tax Relief" check coming from? If its coming from the budget surplus, then isn't it affecting monies collected before the act was passed, and evn past the retroactive date of Jan. 1? How is spending the budget surplus now a wise move when in less then 10 years Social Security will be overwhelmed with the baby boomers all clamoring for their share? I would agree that retirement benefits, 401ks and savings should factor into an individual's retirement planning, but if the money has been collected since people started working, it is a reasonable expectation to recieve what has been paid for. I hate this job! I hate this goddamn job and I don't need it!!! capnfudge@opieanthony.com People say that I neglect my responsibilities But I don't mind cause I'll live longer. Need Adoption??? Now accepting applications for the crew. | ||||
| Snoteater | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 2:03 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | I am going to have to say That i agree with both AM and Capt. There are plenty of programs in our government that could use the extra cash (i.e. social security, Medicade & medicare...) Stuff that can help socity as a whole. Getting the three hundred is nice but it's not the solution to the economy problem. And as an aside, I can not believe that paying down debt is a bad thing. Maybe it's different on a personal level than a corporate or government level, but once I paid off my Deb(everything but my ongoing student loans), i have better things to spend my money on. | ||||
| o&aswallow | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 2:21 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Cap'n and AM are pretty much right on. This tax rebate has been a bad idea all along. NOTHING is being done to reduce the government spending. I have lived most of my adult life under a government deficit. We have a brief surplus and we give it back?? Huh?? Political hero Dubya yes. Smart longterm move? Not on your life. Nobody want's a tax increase. The reality is, those checks comming in the mail have already forced that increase to happen. Enjoy your money now, you will be giving it back, and then some shortly. o&aswallow Recognized His Destiny Early. Too Many Hotties, Not Enough Horny Goat Weed Now accepting foster children applications. Cash only, no checks. Email at onaswallow@opieanthony.com Frat Guy has rented one of the foster bedrooms as of 7/21. Yes ladies, another college boy is in town for you to ravage. It at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed. - Curly Howard. Pennsylvania resident, but original NYC listener. | ||||
| BawxedWine | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 2:22 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | Tax increase, big surprise. You know what would solve some of these problems? Streamlining government and abolishing welfare. If you fall into hard times, you shouldn't be given a handout. You should swallow your pride and take the shitty job at McDonald's or Home Depot. It will motivate you to strive for something better instead of taking your time until the right job "comes along". Welfare was founded during the depression. It was needed than, but it is not needed now. Yes, people are poor, but at the same time the US has the most wealthy poor in the world. The typical family living below the poverty level has color TV, a car, and acomadations with indoor plumbing. personally, I wouldn't want to live below the poverty level but I can think of countries where people are far worse off. As for Social Security, I would abolish that too. It would give us all a few more dollars per paycheck and teach us how to save money instead of spending it as it comes in. I don't understand why everybody doesn't have an IRA account. That is the smartest investment you could make, and it has far higher yields than Social Security or even most 401Ks.  Girls get moist for the Chevy Blazer. | ||||
| Cap'n Fudge | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 2:37 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Bawx, While we're at it, can we shoot all them handicapped retards who are on Social Security too? Yes, people should be accountable for their lives. However, a social security system takes pressure off the working man to plan for his retirement. If I was putting aside $100 a paycheck for retirement, and I could get to the money when I needed a car or a Playstation 2, there'd never be any money when I was too old to work. The government collects it, uses it and pays out to less people than contribute to it. Unless we convert our government to the one in "Logan's Run" we need social security. I hate this job! I hate this goddamn job and I don't need it!!! capnfudge@opieanthony.com People say that I neglect my responsibilities But I don't mind cause I'll live longer. Need Adoption??? Now accepting applications for the crew. | ||||
| Snoteater | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 2:39 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Apr. 01 | bawxed, I don't know where to begin. Sure you can take the Mcdonalds job or the Home Depot job, but is that enough for you to support a family??? Not by a long shot. Our Tax dollars support the Gov't, why should the reverse happen if you fall on hard times. Welfare was never that big of a problem, not a least as big as Reagan made it into. He created a false demon in the welfare mother. Sure there are so people on welfare & were content just living on that, but it's not the majority of people. If you want to "save money", try collect the back taxes from the major Corps that owe the gov't $$ or stop Corporate Welfare which takes twice as much out of our Econmoy than personal Welfare. Sure IRA's are nice, but If you don't have the disposible income to put into it every month or year... | ||||
| Spork | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 3:40 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | Capn'Fudge asked:quote: I'm trying to figure out where you're getting the $64 figure. The rebate check comes as a result of the introduction of a NEW 10% tax bracket. The old bracket was 15%. The new bracket is applied to the first $6,000 of your income if you are a single filer. That's how marginal tax rates work. The first amount of your income is subject to tax at one rate, your next amount at the next rate and so on. So providing that you made at least $6,000 you should be getting the $300 back because of the lowered rate. What that means is, and that no one seems to take notice of is that this tax cut most benefits the lower and middle class! Perhaps you could explain more where this $64 figure you're describing is coming from? Then he mentioned: quote: Oh, the lovely paternalistic state. "Please, oh wise government, take my money so I don't spend it, you can't trust me and you are so much smarter than I am!" No fucking thanks. The person who handles my money best is ME. If people can't handle their money then that's THEIR fucking problem now isn't it? I love how all notions of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY have just fallen by the wayside. I refuse to accept the fact that I should be inconvenienced because other people are far less responsible than I am. That may sound cold and cruel to some of you, but I really don't give a poo. It's amazing how much better your life is when you can do things for yourself. But you know where I do use that logic? It's when the GOVERNMENT has my money. You know why? Because it is THEY who have a great history of BLOWING money. That's why Greenspan advocated the tax refund and rate cuts because the surplus would have been SPENT. And probably not on things you would have liked either, it would have been spent on pork projects. So if you're happy paving West Virginia with your extra tax money why don't you let me take my tax cut and you mail your paycheck directly to Sentator Byrd of WV. Graduated and Rooned by Rone on 6/16/01 | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 3:47 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | There are thousands of people that work hard and don't get enough money for old age. They have to pay for their children's education, etc. A lot of old people live off of Social Security. You can't take that from them. quote: Or maybe he's in the high tax brackets and would beneefit hugely from less taxes. Resident Board Socialist Email me here IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought Syndicate into the International | ||||
| Spork | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 3:50 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | Masturbator of the Adolescent Variety wrote:quote: Income tax - "temporary" measure necessary to wage a world war. Right. And approaching a hundred years later we're still paying for both wars. NICE! We still don't need an income tax per se, a sales tax would do. Regardless even though the United States pays the second least amount of income taxes (last I checked and my figures may be old) we STILL pay too many taxes. Then you said: quote: Yeah, we wouldn't want the corporations getting their hands on it where they could turn it into profits for investors (which equals better retirements for people with 401(k) plans) and oh, say, jobs. I know you're a socialist and you're being intellectually consistent and all, but I happen to have my job because an "evil" corporation hires me to do work for them. Ack! Graduated and Rooned by Rone on 6/16/01 | ||||
| adolescentmasturbator | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 3:56 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Jan. 01 | Most investors aren't going to make much money with this economy. The economy has slowed down to a snail's pace. quote: Corporations are evil but it isn't necesarily evil to work for them. Many poor people have no choice I'm not going to blame them and you have a right to advance thru and make more money for yourself. Hell that's what socialism was built on the goal of creating a better life for the poor. My problem is the trampling of others in order to make a profit. But let's get back to the tax cut before it becomes another socialism discussion. If we eliminated income tax the country would go haywire and make sales tax extremely high and that wouldn't solve the problem. Resident Board Socialist Email me here IM me at stickysituation2 or pinkorag Webmaster of the Undergound Unofficial I Hate WhackBagKid Message Board I currently have brought Syndicate into the International | ||||
| Cap'n Fudge | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 3:58 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Oct. 00 | Spork, I'm making an extra $64 annually with the Tax Relief. The $300 will undoubtably come out of my 2001 tax return, so really GW is trying to pull the wool over the 52% of americans who thought he wasn't smart enough to be president in the first place. As for a "paternalistic government," I would contend that it would cost more without social security for the government to handle the unemployable, either putting them in jail or in homes. I hate this job! I hate this goddamn job and I don't need it!!! capnfudge@opieanthony.com People say that I neglect my responsibilities But I don't mind cause I'll live longer. Need Adoption??? Now accepting applications for the crew. | ||||
| Spork | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 4:14 PM | | |||
| Psychopath Registered: Jun. 01 | What don't you understand about how this works? WHERE is the $64 coming from? Going forward: Your first $6,000 WAS taxed at the 15% rate. So that means that annually on your first $6,000 you WERE taxed $900. Now with that rate lowered to 10% you WILL BE taxed $600 on the same income. So that means that you will get $300 back annually. On top of that as of the 1st of July, the 28% bracket goes to 27.5% and then to 27% next year. Graduated and Rooned by Rone on 6/16/01 | ||||
| The Painter 1/2 a bottle of Jack Daniels... it's a cure-all | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 5:00 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Sep. 00 | All you people who don't think you should get that check from the government, send it back. Tell them you don't want it. If you don't see a problem with a tax raise, send them more than you owe. YOU KNOW YOU WON'T. Any of you should try to run your own business, only then will you understand how the government rapes you. For me to put 100 dollars in my pocket, I have to bring in about 400 dollars. AM do you even pay taxes? Do you pay rent? Food? Electric? Phone? Internet access? I know your underage, just wondering.  This message was edited by The Painter on 7-24-01 @ 5:20 PM | ||||
| njstrawberry | posted on 07-24-2001 @ 6:38 PM | | |||
| O&A Board Regular Registered: Feb. 01 | lowering marginal tax rates the elimination of the marriage penalty the increase of the child credit There are literally of dozens of tax incentives included in this plan including inheritance taxes. If I were you I would make it a point to find out more. Tax Calculator The democrates are just trying to raise the discussion of taxes as a means of seeming fiscally responsible. What they don't realize is that they are now hurting themselves in the 2001 & 2002 elections. If you are outraged of the talk of raising taxes make sure it only remains as talk. Write your congressman and senators and let your voice be heard. If you really want to make an impact vote Republican in Novemeber. Keep your money in your wallet and teach the dems that government is suppose to be a helping hand NOT a heavy hand.  I was bi when being bi wasn't kewl. Mmmm tastes like chicken to me, wanna lick? DON'T UNDER ESTIMATE THE PSYCHO FACTOR IN MY HEAD This message was edited by njstrawberry on 7-24-01 @ 6:38 PM | ||||
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