McCain in 08! Obama Supporters Need Reality Check

[fistor!@#]

Most people don't realize you need to be at least a millionaire (maybe even more) for the Republican economy to benefit them.

I wonder if the Billionaires for Bush will change their name as it gets closer to November?

[providencecrow]

Barack Obama wants to end all that progress and could cause more conflict. Meaning that Iran might start pointing their weapons at Israel. Remember the Holocaust? Amadinajad,(however it is spelled) the Iranian President, believes it did not take place. He has similar beliefs to Adolf Hitler and wants Israel destroyed. The Holocaust did indeed happen and he wants to destroy Israel because it is a commonly We have to take that seriously. I'm looking at it for world peace for the long term. That region needs to stay stable and having an unstable Mid East equals higher gas prices which drives everything today. It is a Huge formula that most don't understand. It all has to blend together. We are fighting for our way of life. I like the way I live and I am going to stand up for it until the day I die and I would be honored to die in combat in Iraq, Afganistan, or anywhere for that matter, for the way we live. If you lived under Saddamn then you would be greatful for what the Americans are doing.

There is a lot in there, so i will sum it up the best we can. So if we pull out of iraq, Iran attacks israel? Great, but i don't live in israel, and if israel doesn't want to get attacked then israel should stop pissing off other countries. It's not our job or duty to bail them out. If they want to be dickheads to their neighbors that's their problem now. It is not our job to police the world. If the leader of Iran does not believe in a factual historical event, then he's just a dumbass, it happens.

High gas prices? good maybe it will actually help change a lot of things. Relatively speaking, we have pretty low gas prices, ever been to Europe? Oh that's right in Europe it's not a problem that its like $15 a gallon because they have other methods of transportation.

High gas prices like that also drive technology forward and maybe finally get some jetpacks or something. Sure it hurts in the wallet right now, but now there is a reason to try and get a water car working for example. Generally it's a bad idea to be so dependent on one solitary thing, options are a very good thing. It's the whole supply and demand paradigm just on a larger scale

I know the Republicans have their regualtions, too, but they don't depend on the government so much in order to function in the everyday world.

What they say and what they do are apparently two very different things. The last bunch of republicans we had in office sure sound a lot like democrats to me based on their actions. Both parties are big government parties no matter how they spin it.

He's too worried about domestics and not so much on foreign policy which is included in the job of being the president.

We do have to balance it out, we have had nothing but 8 years of foreign policy. We have major domestic troubles that we need to worry about before we can take care of matters elsewhere. What about all the beyond condemned bridges for example?


I would just like to point out, that as i have said before i will not be voting for either because i dont particularly agree with any of them, so i can't in good conscience do that, but i guess i cant wrap my head around your argument correctly so i had to say my part.

[kaboobie92]

regardless of your political orientation, it makes sense that the government MUST become smaller. We are a democracy not a socialistic nation. Our government is spending too much money, and becoming way too powerful. I believe that voting republican is the only way this is going to happen, but that is just my thought.

[fistor!@#]

kaboobie, any reaction to the article ratrad posted? You were absolutely clear before in your stance that Obama plans to raise taxes, but according to that article, he will actually lower taxes for the middle class and redistribute it to the lower class, whereas McCain plans to redistribute his (lesser) tax cuts for the middle class to the richest 0.1%.

Any comment on that? I thought it was a bit funny how you dropped the issue entirely and launched into something Obama may or may not've said in a speech.

bump.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Where to begin with this one. I will start with the obvious: What is the difference if i have to give up a portion of my paycheck to get health coverage through my job, pay for my own plan independently, or pay for it towards taxes. Either way I'm paying

the difference is you are paying for your coverage with your hard earned money...not paying for some lazy ass to sit on the couch eating cheetos and watching Springer

[kaboobie92]

kaboobie, any reaction to the article ratrad posted? You were absolutely clear before in your stance that Obama plans to raise taxes, but according to that article, he will actually lower taxes for the middle class and redistribute it to the lower class, whereas McCain plans to redistribute his (lesser) tax cuts for the middle class to the richest 0.1%.

Any comment on that? I thought it was a bit funny how you dropped the issue entirely and launched into something Obama may or may not've said in a speech.

bump.

Whether or not Obama will raise or lower taxes, no one will know unless he is elected. He has flip-flopped on so many issues so many times that nobody knows that his stances are anymore. And why tax the rich so much? They work just as hard for their money, and a lot work harder. So you are saying that since my dad is a business owner and works hard, that because he makes over 200k means he should be taxed more than an average person that makes 50k a year? I can see a slight difference, but Obama wants to make a huge tax burden on the rich, and a huge tax cut to the poor. That is not going to help the economy, only redistribute the wealth. We need tax cuts across the board, not just to the rich and middle class. Its not fair to people that work their asses off to take all the money from them and give it to the poor.

[fistor!@#]

bump.

Whether or not Obama will raise or lower taxes, no one will know unless he is elected. He has flip-flopped on so many issues so many times that nobody knows that his stances are anymore. And why tax the rich so much? They work just as hard for their money, and a lot work harder. So you are saying that since my dad is a business owner and works hard, that because he makes over 200k means he should be taxed more than an average person that makes 50k a year? I can see a slight difference, but Obama wants to make a huge tax burden on the rich, and a huge tax cut to the poor. That is not going to help the economy, only redistribute the wealth. We need tax cuts across the board, not just to the rich and middle class. Its not fair to people that work their asses off to take all the money from them and give it to the poor.

Obama plans on taking all the money from the rich and give it to the poor? Really? Please provide a link. I would think he wouldn't get any campaign support whatsoever from rich people if this is the case.

Also show me where this "huge tax burden on the rich" is, in his economic plan.

Thanks.

[kaboobie92]

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publication...23319.html

It's all in there.

[kaboobie92]

"this plan would increase the tax burden of top earners by an additional $40 billion in 2009 alone and more than $629 billion over the next ten years. By itself, the $40 billion tax hike is twice as much as all the federal taxes paid by people in the bottom quintile combined."

That was pulled straight out of the article

[fistor!@#]

"this plan would increase the tax burden of top earners by an additional $40 billion in 2009 alone and more than $629 billion over the next ten years. By itself, the $40 billion tax hike is twice as much as all the federal taxes paid by people in the bottom quintile combined."

That was pulled straight out of the article

And?

Is $40 billion more too much for the rich to pay in taxes? What do they pay now? Is it at all comparable to what the middle class pays? Or does this even the playing field a bit?

Are you saying taxing the rich is a bad thing?

[kaboobie92]

"this plan would increase the tax burden of top earners by an additional $40 billion in 2009 alone and more than $629 billion over the next ten years. By itself, the $40 billion tax hike is twice as much as all the federal taxes paid by people in the bottom quintile combined."

That was pulled straight out of the article

And?

Is $40 billion more too much for the rich to pay in taxes? What do they pay now? Is it at all comparable to what the middle class pays? Or does this even the playing field a bit?

Are you saying taxing the rich is a bad thing?

$40 Billion? uh yes. Last time I checked that is a large sum of money, but what do I know anyways. And the rich pay a lot more than the middle class right now. I've compared the taxes my dad pays to the taxes of some of my friends' parents and it is a lot higher. And even the playing field? Its not fair to put heavier taxes on the rich because they make more. I can see if it is an even percentage of your income across the board, but when Obama wants a higher percentage for the rich, and lower for each class that is wrong. This is SOCIALISM. He is trying to eliminate the classes in our society.

[fistor!@#]

$40 Billion? uh yes. Last time I checked that is a large sum of money, but what do I know anyways.

Did I say that wasn't a large sum of money? I asked what the percentages are. And, by the way, $40 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to a multi-trilllion dollar debt.

I've compared the taxes my dad pays to the taxes of some of my friends' parents and it is a lot higher.

Yeah, how about some actual stats, instead of comparing your dad's tax return to your friend's dads?

And even the playing field? Its not fair to put heavier taxes on the rich because they make more.

The rich should feel the same tax burden we all feel. They should not be priveleged. They should pay the same percentage we all pay. That's evening the playing field. McCain's plan is to make sure the rich get tax cuts while the rest of us pay more. THAT is not fair.

I can see if it is an even percentage of your income across the board,

Yes, this is what I'd saying. Do the rich currently pay the same percentage as the middle class? The answer is no. They enjoy a nice juicy tax break courtesy of George Dubya Bush.

I can see if it is an even percentage of your income across the board, but when Obama wants a higher percentage for the rich, and lower for each class that is wrong. This is SOCIALISM.

Really? What is it called when the rich get tax breaks, and the rest bear the brunt? Oligarchy? Because that's what we have now. You have no idea if Obama's plan is to make the percentages of tax even across the board (thereby raising taxes for the rich, who are paying little now) or not, you just assume he's trying to screw over a certain class of people. Most likely because that's what Rush told you to believe.

[fistor!@#]

And oh, by the way: Obama is a part of the "rich" class, who he plans to tax more.

[kaboobie92]

you obviously didnt read the article. And as for statistics? I'd rather leave my dad's tax information out of the discussion. Chances are that he pays a helluvalot more taxes than you do. I'm not saying that the rich shouldnt pay more taxes. I'm saying it should be an equal percentage of income. And McCain wants tax cuts across the board, not just to the rich. And as for Obama... The guy has probabally not worked a hard day in his life. He is very wealthy and set for life, so what does he care about taxes? He will still get a juicy salary if elected president or even if he stays in congress. And you shouldnt smack talk rush, b/c he is alot smarter than you think he is.

[fistor!@#]

And you shouldnt smack talk rush, b/c he is alot smarter than you think he is.

That's what I thought.

Remember, things are never black and white, like radio talk show hosts would have you believe.

As for the rest, there's no use discussing this further. I ask for statistics regarding income tax onthe rich and you think I'm asking you to post your fathers W2. You are refusing to hear me at this point. It's obvious to me that you come from a privileged family, are enjoying that privilege, and are a Rush listener. You don't want government to take money away from your family, and bristle at a candidate who suggests he might.

For me, even if Obama plans to unfairly overtax the rich, which he's not, I still wouldn't consider that a reason to not vote for him.

[kaboobie92]

its not like his tax policies are the only reason I wont vote for him.. And as for statistics, why don't you provide me with some proving your point? I dont have the time to look all over the internet to find stats for evidence. And as for Rush, I dont follow him like a lot of people do. I have my own beliefs and opinions, and it just so happens that Rush and I align on most things.

[fistor!@#]

its not like his tax policies are the only reason I wont vote for him.. And as for statistics, why don't you provide me with some proving your point? I dont have the time to look all over the internet to find stats for evidence. And as for Rush, I dont follow him like a lot of people do. I have my own beliefs and opinions, and it just so happens that Rush and I align on most things.

You are the one making the claims that Obama plans to take all the money from the rich and give it to the poor. The burden of proof is on you to back that up with some actual stats, instead of just regurgitating Rush's latest blog entry.

[speedbump]

you obviously didnt read the article. And as for statistics? I'd rather leave my dad's tax information out of the discussion. Chances are that he pays a helluvalot more taxes than you do. I'm not saying that the rich shouldnt pay more taxes. I'm saying it should be an equal percentage of income. And McCain wants tax cuts across the board, not just to the rich. And as for Obama... The guy has probabally not worked a hard day in his life. He is very wealthy and set for life, so what does he care about taxes? He will still get a juicy salary if elected president or even if he stays in congress. And you shouldnt smack talk rush, b/c he is alot smarter than you think he is.

Obama's parents divorced when he was two, his dad moved to Kenya and he went to school with his mom in Indonesia. He lived with his grandparents from 5th grade until he finished high school. He went to Colombia and Harvard to get his law degree, he taught at the University of Chicago. At Chicago he taught Constitutional law for 12 years. At Harvard he became President of Harvard Law Review, the most prestigious review journal in the country. He worked for a group of Catholic churches in South Chicago where he ran a program to help educate kids, where he quadrupled their annual budget in 3 years.

I know McCain was in the Navy, which deserves respect, but you can't say that Obama hasn't worked a hard day in his life.

[providencecrow]

the difference is you are paying for your coverage with your hard earned money...not paying for some lazy ass to sit on the couch eating cheetos and watching Springer

But i'm not. So far i have had to get medication due to strep throat, and i had to pay completely out of pocket because even though im paying weekly for health coverage, i have not yet met my deductable.

If i broke my leg tomorrow, id now be roughly $650 out of pocket for the year for "Coverage", plus the $400 i already spent on doctor visits and meds for my strep earlier this year, plus the remaining 600 dollars at the hospital for having my leg reset. Which at this point would put me $1650 in the hole for this year for "coverage". Great effing system let me tell you. I'd much rather pay 50 a week out of my paycheck for "everyone" just to ensure i would only have a co-pay at most if something were to happen to me. This would still be cheaper than taking out my own plan.

Oh did i add my job forces you to have their medical coverage if you don't have any external coverage? Once again, either way I have to pay, and taxes are actually cheaper for medical coverage for me in all cases. I am NOT the only one in this position.

The healthcare system in this country is completely broken beyond repair. The only fixes are one of two things 1) universal healthcare or 2) a mandate putting every single health provider out of business and starting from the ground up.

Besides, it is completely absurd that it costs 150 dollars just to walk through the waiting room door just to see a doctor for 5 minutes. The problem is there is no competition. I can't take my business elsewhere because no matter who i go see, im screwed out of way too much money for something as basic as medical care.

[hotsauce]

As I have said before, I have never known a poor person to create jobs. The rich in this country create jobs. They are also known to contribute more and to startup charities. ie Bill Gates. They do these more frequently when they aren't forced to pay 51% of their income in taxes.

Oh and by the way, the liberals and their media aren't saying much about the WMD's found in Iraq that is now in Canada, are they. Must be a kick in the teeth to know that Bush wasn't lying.
Might make it a little more difficult for Obama.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080706/D91O8E100.html

[fistor!@#]

As I have said before, I have never known a poor person to create jobs. The rich in this country create jobs. They are also known to contribute more and to startup charities. ie Bill Gates. They do these more frequently when they aren't forced to pay 51% of their income in taxes.

Finally, a stat. Can you please substantiate that 51% figure with a reputable link of some sort?

Also, if it's the rich who create the jobs, they're doing a pretty shitty job. Unless you're counting the Indian and Mexican employees, who are becoming more are more wealthy because of our all-providing rich class.

[speedbump]

As I have said before, I have never known a poor person to create jobs. The rich in this country create jobs. They are also known to contribute more and to startup charities. ie Bill Gates. They do these more frequently when they aren't forced to pay 51% of their income in taxes.

Oh and by the way, the liberals and their media aren't saying much about the WMD's found in Iraq that is now in Canada, are they. Must be a kick in the teeth to know that Bush wasn't lying.
Might make it a little more difficult for Obama.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080706/D91O8E100.html

Both Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have said they're not taxed enough, and I'm PRETTY sure(read 100%) that they're in the top 1%.

Yellowcake uranium != WMD. Everyone knows Iraq was working on WMDs, but they didn't have them yet.

[leroyjenkins]

Obama says he is the candidate for change. Change is well and good, but you can't have change for the sake of change. Is it change for the good or bad. You need to know that before you just change everything.

what the hell did you just say? but i totally agree, he talks about change, and thats great, but his changes are not good... lets face it, hes an economic socialist, he will tax the middle and upperclasses until hes given away as much money as possible to the lower classes, he plans to spend enormous amounts of money on federal programs assiting the poor, all of which will be paid for again by tax increases to middle and upperclasses... who gives a shit about iraq, face it, well be there a long time, and bush knew that when we went it, so lets stop debating who voted about it 8 Effin years ago and figure out how to fix this economy, and so far, neither candidate has a good policy on that...

[oldsquid]

As I have said before, I have never known a poor person to create jobs. The rich in this country create jobs. They are also known to contribute more and to startup charities. ie Bill Gates. They do these more frequently when they aren't forced to pay 51% of their income in taxes.

Oh and by the way, the liberals and their media aren't saying much about the WMD's found in Iraq that is now in Canada, are they. Must be a kick in the teeth to know that Bush wasn't lying.
Might make it a little more difficult for Obama.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080706/D91O8E100.html

Both Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have said they're not taxed enough, and I'm PRETTY sure(read 100%) that they're in the top 1%.

Yellowcake uranium != WMD. Everyone knows Iraq was working on WMDs, but they didn't have them yet.

Yeah, that yellowcake uranium could not even be used to make a dirty bomb. It would have to have been enhanced to do that.

[kaboobie92]

Obama says he is the candidate for change. Change is well and good, but you can't have change for the sake of change. Is it change for the good or bad. You need to know that before you just change everything.

what the hell did you just say? but i totally agree, he talks about change, and thats great, but his changes are not good... lets face it, hes an economic socialist, he will tax the middle and upperclasses until hes given away as much money as possible to the lower classes, he plans to spend enormous amounts of money on federal programs assiting the poor, all of which will be paid for again by tax increases to middle and upperclasses... who gives a shit about iraq, face it, well be there a long time, and bush knew that when we went it, so lets stop debating who voted about it 8 effin years ago and figure out how to fix this economy, and so far, neither candidate has a good policy on that...

Exactly... +1

[leroyjenkins]

Exactly... +1

thank you.... +1 as well

[lovegrenade]

Obama says he is the candidate for change. Change is well and good, but you can't have change for the sake of change. Is it change for the good or bad. You need to know that before you just change everything.

what the hell did you just say? but i totally agree, he talks about change, and thats great, but his changes are not good... lets face it, hes an economic socialist, he will tax the middle and upperclasses until hes given away as much money as possible to the lower classes, he plans to spend enormous amounts of money on federal programs assiting the poor, all of which will be paid for again by tax increases to middle and upperclasses... who gives a shit about iraq, face it, well be there a long time, and bush knew that when we went it, so lets stop debating who voted about it 8 effin years ago and figure out how to fix this economy, and so far, neither candidate has a good policy on that...

"WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT IRAQ?!!!" I don't know, maybe the soldiers that are over there fighting/dying, maybe their families that are watching them die, maybe the Iraqi civilians that are being killed? WTF?
Also, get your effin facts straight. Barack does not plan to raise taxes for the middle class, he only plans on reversing the Bush Tax Cuts for the ULTRA WEALTHY, that even McFlipflop once described as "irresponsible".

[kaboobie92]

what the hell did you just say? but i totally agree, he talks about change, and thats great, but his changes are not good... lets face it, hes an economic socialist, he will tax the middle and upperclasses until hes given away as much money as possible to the lower classes, he plans to spend enormous amounts of money on federal programs assiting the poor, all of which will be paid for again by tax increases to middle and upperclasses... who gives a shit about iraq, face it, well be there a long time, and bush knew that when we went it, so lets stop debating who voted about it 8 effin years ago and figure out how to fix this economy, and so far, neither candidate has a good policy on that...

"WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT IRAQ?!!!" I don't know, maybe the soldiers that are over there fighting/dying, maybe their families that are watching them die, maybe the Iraqi civilians that are being killed? WTF?
Also, get your effin facts straight. Barack does not plan to raise taxes for the middle class, he only plans on reversing the Bush Tax Cuts for the ULTRA WEALTHY, that even McFlipflop once described as "irresponsible".

keep it in your pants love grenade... and back off the steroids.

[Wiener Poopie]

what the hell did you just say? but i totally agree, he talks about change, and thats great, but his changes are not good... lets face it, hes an economic socialist, he will tax the middle and upperclasses until hes given away as much money as possible to the lower classes, he plans to spend enormous amounts of money on federal programs assiting the poor, all of which will be paid for again by tax increases to middle and upperclasses... who gives a shit about iraq, face it, well be there a long time, and bush knew that when we went it, so lets stop debating who voted about it 8 effin years ago and figure out how to fix this economy, and so far, neither candidate has a good policy on that...

"WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT IRAQ?!!!" I don't know, maybe the soldiers that are over there fighting/dying, maybe their families that are watching them die, maybe the Iraqi civilians that are being killed? WTF?
Also, get your effin facts straight. Barack does not plan to raise taxes for the middle class, he only plans on reversing the Bush Tax Cuts for the ULTRA WEALTHY, that even McFlipflop once described as "irresponsible".

I think he means Iraq as a country, not the war but still not entirely sure ???

[fistor!@#]

"WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT IRAQ?!!!" I don't know, maybe the soldiers that are over there fighting/dying, maybe their families that are watching them die, maybe the Iraqi civilians that are being killed? WTF?
Also, get your effin facts straight. Barack does not plan to raise taxes for the middle class, he only plans on reversing the Bush Tax Cuts for the ULTRA WEALTHY, that even McFlipflop once described as "irresponsible".

keep it in your pants love grenade... and back off the steroids.

Lovegrenade's right.

"Who gives a shit about Iraq" was an extremely ignorant and insensitive thing to say.

[fistor!@#]

I think he means Iraq as a country, not the war but still not entirely sure ???

He was saying we should forget about Iraq because we just need to accept the fact we'll be there a long time. As if the deaths that occur there nearly every day are akin to video game violence.

[Wiener Poopie]

I think he means Iraq as a country, not the war but still not entirely sure ???

He was saying we should forget about Iraq because we just need to accept the fact we'll be there a long time. As if the deaths that occur there nearly every day are akin to video game violence.

Your right (as always) I should have read the entire quote a little more carefully

[lovegrenade]

I don't normally break out the All-Caps, but I felt that asinine quote was worthy of it. I'm also sick of people spreading this misinformation about Barack suppossedly increasing taxes for the middle class. It's complete BS and yet every moron with a hard on for O'Reilly and Limbaugh seem to think it's true. Yes Bill and Rush, YOUR taxes will increase to pre-Bush levells. 99.9999999999% of your listeners will see tax decreases.

[kaboobie92]

I don't normally break out the All-Caps, but I felt that asinine quote was worthy of it. I'm also sick of people spreading this misinformation about Barack suppossedly increasing taxes for the middle class. It's complete BS and yet every moron with a hard on for O'Reilly and Limbaugh seem to think it's true. Yes Bill and Rush, YOUR taxes will increase to pre-Bush levells. 99.9999999999% of your listeners will see tax decreases.

oh really dr. econ. read this article and see if u still keep your misinformed stance. http://www.taxfoundation.org/publication...23319.html

redistribution IS socialism

[lovegrenade]

oh really dr. econ. read this article and see if u still keep your misinformed stance. http://www.taxfoundation.org/publication...23319.html

redistribution IS socialism

Well Captain America, that article doesn't refute anything that I've said. Barack Obama is not raising taxes on the Middle Class. The wealthiest 1% will see an increase in their taxes, because they will no longer receive the benefits of the irresponsible Bush Tax-Cuts. It's a shame though, because those tax cuts have worked out great over the last 8 years.

[lovegrenade]

Don't worry Kaboobie92, I used to be a conservative Republican too. There's still hope for you...

[lovegrenade]

Also, in your pursuit to end Socialism, I recommend boycotting the police and fire protection that we all enjoy. Let it burn, that'll show us commie bastards...

[kaboobie92]

oh really. In order to stimulate the economy we need more goods being purchased. This in turn make companies busier, hires more employees, and begins to make a successful market. Who do you think spends the most money? Not the poor people. Its the wealthy, middle upper class and the upper class. And why cant people get off their lazy asses and get a job or two instead of complaining and wanting other people to pay for them to sit on their couches and eat cocoa puffs. I'm so sick of these people that spawn off the government and waste my tax dollars, and these are the people that you would be supporting with this "redistrubution". You are arguing for this b/c you will probabally benefit from it. This will damage the economy as a whole, even though it may help people on the small end of the income ladder.

[kaboobie92]

Don't worry Kaboobie92, I used to be a conservative Republican too. There's still hope for you...

.... And then your head got run over by a pack of tree-hugging, white flag waving pansies.

[fistor!@#]

kaboobie, you are so painfully ignorant and out of touch with the real world, it's sad. And I was probably the exact same way when I was your age, too.

The vast majority of poor people are not poor simply because they're lazy. I've said this before. Maybe when you get some more responsibility in your life (like a mortgage, a wife, children, etc), you'll understand how hard it is to keep your head above water in an economy as shitty as this.

Until then, try to understand that not everything is black and white.